What do they check for when pulled over by the MP

[tis]

I see plenty of boats who are obeying the law who don't even show a ripple of a wave when they go through a no wake zone. You just don't want to believe it, Woodsy.

[Descant]

Check out the steam boats in Lee's Mills this week. Full speed ahead, pass each other, etc . And all in a NWZ (within 150' of each other). You don't have to go fats to have fun on the water.,

[Dave R]

Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.

[rowinghelmet]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.

Thanks for asking this Dave R. I've always wondered this too. Why do people get so bent out of shape about this? My philosophy is to get mooring whips, a lift, and or fenders and call it a day...

[Woodsy]

Just for the record... a human cannonball has A LOT less energy than a boat wake... it all has to do with displacement. A 5000lb boat displaces way more water with a lot more energy...

Thant being said, I do believe boaters should be courteous and polite. I just think that a NWZ is mislabeled. It should read Headway speed - 6 MPH.

Woodsy

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH?

Because some people need better hobbies. I would think that dedicating your life to yelling at strangers having fun would not be very fulfilling, yet it seems to be a vibrant local pastime among many.

[SAMIAM]

Actually, I love it when someone throws up a wake going by my place.....helps clean the beach and shore and I've got mooring whips.
We used to be able to teach our kids to ski right off the dock until a few activists got together and had our bay declared no wake. Many of us were away or just not paying attention.

[nightrider]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.

I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.
Also, here's a way to pass through the weirs channel during the spring flow at about 6 MPH (relative to the land and as observed via GPS). Say the water is flowing through the channel at 10 MPH. Approach the channel and as you get into the current, reverse direction, facing into the current. Maintain headway speed of 4 MPH or so relative to the water into the current while actually going backwards through the channel at 6 MPH relative to the land and GPS readings. Just be careful of the boats passing you doing 16 MPH relative to the land and GPS.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.
Also, here's a way to pass through the weirs channel during the spring flow at about 6 MPH (relative to the land and as observed via GPS). Say the water is flowing through the channel at 10 MPH. Approach the channel and as you get into the current, reverse direction, facing into the current. Maintain headway speed of 4 MPH or so relative to the water into the current while actually going backwards through the channel at 6 MPH relative to the land and GPS readings. Just be careful of the boats passing you doing 16 MPH relative to the land and GPS.

On the worst day the current in the weirs never exceeds 2 or 3 mph, in fact I don't think it exceeds 2 myself. You don't need to change your speed at all to maintain headway, either way, in that current.

[Woodsy]

ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

Woodsy

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

Woodsy

6 knots is 6.9 mph..... no way. My boat idles at about 4 or 5 mph and with the dam wide open I have never had any problem making 3+ mph against the current in that channel. AND you don't have to change your speed, you just go slower relative to the land.

[Woodsy]

ITD... I respectfully disagree

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD... I respectfully disagree

You and will have to meet on our jet skis next spring, when the dam is wide open and do some tests. I'll bring a hand held gps and buy you a beer at the naswa after so we can tabulate data.

[Woodsy]

Sounds like a plan!



Woodsy

[Rich]

Are you two referring to different data?

When the law says 6 mph, isn't it speaking of the speed over water, not speed over ground?

Since boats operate in water I would think that headway speed has no reference to speed over ground, because current could in fact affect the speed as measured over ground.

So I would think a radar gun is more useful to measure speed over water than a GPS which without knowledge of the current measures speed over ground.

I have a sport type radar gun if you want to borrow it for your test.

[HellRaZoR004]

Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.

Agreed. They will show the same speed, as long as the radar is used correctly. The NH "headway speed" definition does not indicate if the 6 MPH is relative to the water or the ground, so the law is ambiguous. That said, maintaining 6 MPH over ground against a 3 MPH current would generate a massive wake (9 MPH over water) and I am certain that a ticket would result if caught. I am also confident that the ticket would stand in district court, but might fail on appeal, depends on how the appellate judge interprets the headway speed definition. If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by Dave R

If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.

If you can prove you are unable to maintain control with a lesser speed through the current then I disagree, otherwise the appeal should fail per your logic.

BTW: this comes up every year. I just find it amusing.

[Woodsy]

DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

Woodsy

[Broken Glass]

If you run your boat at idle,(or any other set RPM) through the channel, in both directions, with your GPS functioning properly,then add the two speeds together and divide by two, you will have your hull speed over ground without any current. Subtract your calculated hull ground speed at set RPM, from your speed running with the current, and you will have the speed of the current in the channel. I have done this a few times and the speed varies within the chanel. It is determined by not only the width of the channel, by by the depth of the water.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

Woodsy

If you are going against a 3 MPH current, you can maintain steerage at a much lower speed over ground than you can over slack water. My boat would maintain steerage at 0 MPH over ground if the current was 3.8 MPH (my speed over slack water at idle).

[Rich]

My point about the radar, was not to be standing on the non-moving ground while taking the reading, of course that would provide the same speed as the GPS.

The problem would be to be on a platform (such as a boat) that was moving with the current. Of course, that speed would be variable, due to the influences of many different factors.

But as always, this is always confusing and will always be debated to the n-degree!

But if anyone would like to play with my radar gun, let me know.

[Woodsy]

Dave R...

You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH

However...

There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time.

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.

Wake surfing is done around 9-11 MPH. That will make a giant wake (pretty much the biggest possible wake for the boat, which is the point...). 6 MPH won't make nearly enough wake to surf on any boat.

[Phantom]

Not sure if you all realize but most Ski/Wake board type inboards have a "skeg" that they can drop beneath the stern of the boat (below the swim platform). Which when engaged runs across the width of the boat stern and enhances the size of the wake. Also, some are equipped with fillable/drainable water bladders to add weight to the stern area further enhancing the wake.


.

[Winnisquamer]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Not sure if you all realize but most Ski/Wake board type inboards have a "skeg" that they can drop beneath the stern of the boat (below the swim platform). Which when engaged runs across the width of the boat stern and enhances the size of the wake. Also, some are equipped with fillable/drainable water bladders to add weight to the stern area further enhancing the wake.


.

I own a wakesurf boat and use it daily so I'll chime in.. Seeing as majority of wake specific boats are V drive I can realistically cruise through a no wake zone at 9mph causing no wake to complain about, for me 1 click past neutral is 6mph.

Surfing is performed between 9.5-12mph depending on boat. Most boats (good surf boats at least) will have ballast bags that you fill with water in order to list the boat. Newer boats use trim tabs or "surf systems" to avoid listing the boat. Also if your in shallow water your doing it wrong. These boats need 10 feet of water or deeper so there is no turbulence between the bottom of the lake and the wake. This will essentially wash out your wave and piss off the neighbors.

From a surfers opinion you have a better wave listed, both ways will create the same disturbance for boats in the area. People who drive circles surfing or wakeboarding should be hung by their ankles and forced to watch how it's really done.

Correct way to surf is to pick a destination on the horizon and go as straight as possible for multiple reasons. First this keeps the wave the same for the surfer, turn towards them the wave will shrink and suck them towards the boat, turn away from them it'll push the rider outside of the boats ideal wave. Secondly this way the waves hit the shoreline and are finished, they do not converge in the middle of the lake creating a rough lake.

This method is exactly why as much as people complain a wakeboard or wakesurf competition can run 200 passes a day and keep the lake calm for each rider.

I'd expect to see more surf boats over the coming years. Realistically it's the new tubing. Seeing guys who haven't put on a pair of water skis in over a decade because they are self proclaimed too old or too beat up and watching them pick up surfing in a few hours revitalizes their drive to be active behind the boat again.

I too get frustrated with surfers going by my house in fear of my boat however a pair of mooring whips and my 6,000 lb boat has never touched the dock. As far as soil erosion and stuff, work Google. States like Utah/Arizona/ Texas have been all over that subject for years to monitor their environment.

If anyone ever finds them selves on Winnisquam and wants to give it a shot next season let me know. Always interested in sharing a great sport with newcomers.