...turning water back on?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Steveo

You should really wait for all the ice to go and the lake to get up to about 50 degrees or above. That way the water acts as a heat source to those cold night below freezing. The air temperature around the waters edge will be about 10 degrees warmer than inland during short periods of freezing weather.

Worst case is that the pipes (and pump) might freeze up but won't get so cold to do damage. Just have to wait for them to thaw before you can flush.

Waiting for the lake to hit 50 degrees is being a bit over cautious. Based on last years figures that would mean you would not turn your water on until around May 9th (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/tempcal/index.cgi).

We always turn ours on so that we can stay out the first weekend after ice-out, which is as soon as ISS can get out to do it. Ours will probably go on tomorrow provided they have time to get to it. Never had a problem in the last 6 years of being there.

[Merrymeeting]

For 12+ years, we've opened up on Patriot's Day weekend (mid-April). We've never had a problem, even in years when ice-out has not yet occurred and nights have gone below freezing, and had pipes exposed under the house.

Given this years weather, I think it's safe to open any time now.

[ishoot308]

Steve from I.S.S. turned my water on today at the camp. He said absolutely no issue...

Dan

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Steve from I.S.S. turned my water on today at the camp. He said absolutely no issue...

Dan

Great, that means he was probably hitting mine too. I was on the short list for early season maniacs.

[Happy Gourmand]

Will be turned on tomorrow...in Meredith.
Hopefully, no leaks!

[SAB1]

Ok. I held back and didnt turn on the water. I am ready to flip the switch but held back figuring the black plastic pipe under the camp could potentially freeze. It just seems a bit early so for all you folks that went for it, if you dont mind, post your results over the next 2 weeks if your basically a weekend user in a seasonal camp and let us know if you had any breaks. Thanks.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Ok. I held back and didnt turn on the water. I am ready to flip the switch but held back figuring the black plastic pipe under the camp could potentially freeze. It just seems a bit early so for all you folks that went for it, if you dont mind, post your results over the next 2 weeks if your basically a weekend user in a seasonal camp and let us know if you had any breaks. Thanks.

It is going to be down into the teens for over night lows this week.
Or as they said on the news, plant killing weather.
Looks like late winter early spring weather returns for a couple of weeks anyways.

[Happy Gourmand]

Went up on Saturday with the intention of opening things up.
For the first time, had 2 pipes burst and the sprayer nozzle on the kitchen sing blew. Though I drained everything like I always have, I obviously didn't drain everything well enough!

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Went up on Saturday with the intention of opening things up.
For the first time, had 2 pipes burst and the sprayer nozzle on the kitchen sing blew. Though I drained everything like I always have, I obviously didn't drain everything well enough!

We had a time when there was a bit of water in the K-1 line that froze at an elbow. Furnace shut off and we had all kinds of problems. Make sure you check the toilet. I thought ours was ok but found it broken inside at the s-trap. Next camp is going to have all plastic tubing.

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Ok. I held back and didnt turn on the water. I am ready to flip the switch but held back figuring the black plastic pipe under the camp could potentially freeze. It just seems a bit early so for all you folks that went for it, if you dont mind, post your results over the next 2 weeks if your basically a weekend user in a seasonal camp and let us know if you had any breaks. Thanks.

Turned mine on last week... and just got back from the cottage, (lucky it's only 6 miles from the house..) after turning all the faucets, inside and out, to a trickle. Turned the heat on to 50.

[ishoot308]

What weather forecast are you all reading?? I see nothing in the teens for the next 10 days??... http://www.weather.com/weather/tenda...rd+NH+USNH0261 The coldest night being tonight with a low of 20 and highs during the day in the mid 40's. By the weekend temps will again be near 50 on Saturday and near 60 on Sunday...

Am I missing something??

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

What weather forecast are you all reading?? I see nothing in the teens for the next 10 days??... http://www.weather.com/weather/tenda...rd+NH+USNH0261 The coldest night being tonight with a low of 20 and highs during the day in the mid 40's. By the weekend temps will again be near 50 on Saturday and near 60 on Sunday...

Am I missing something??

Here is the NWS forecast for Alton:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...&FcstType=text

Low of 18 tonight. The dew point is low at 9 degrees right now, but as long as the wind keeps blowing, and it will, the temperature will not get down that low. However, upper teens is a good forecast for tonight's low. The lake is at 40 degrees, so if the wind is off the water and you are close to the water, it will be a lot warmer, but for most it should get below 20.

Gets a bit warmer each night after that!

R2B

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Steve from I.S.S. turned my water on today at the camp. He said absolutely no issue...

Dan

Let us know if he was right. It should be close.

[fatlazyless]

"Water pipe Prayer"

.. 6:26-am, Tuesday, March 27, and the WeirsCam says it is 22-degrees. Here in Waterville Valley, my thermometer says it is 17-degrees..........ouchey-ouch-ouch......took the precaution yesterday to drain out the 40-gal pressure tank and open all the faucets, and put rv antifreeze in the bathtub drain trap that is under the cottage.......please........all Forum Members.......come together and pray for my poor, helpless, poverty-struck lil' water pipes! Oh lordy, lordy, lord.....please do not let it freeze up and get all cracked up in some totally inaccessible spot inside a wall somewhere! .......brothers and sisters......down & out......from that poor Walmart side of the lake .....let us all come together and pray for my poor 1/2" external diameter, copper water pipes..........amen! ..


Whatever you do, do not call a plumber.....just go get about 25-dollars worth of propane torch, soldier,flux, wire brush and tiny tubing cutter and fix-it-yourself!

Licensed plumber price - $400

Do-it-yourself price - $40

And, it's not all that difficult to make the fix.


Think I'll go take a walk.....watch the sun come up......and enjoy what could be the last blast of winter.........yeeeehawwwwwww!!!

[fpartri497]

It finally happened he went over the edge

[Mink Islander]

My daughter and I made a special trip last night to drain the water. Should have done that on Sunday, but missed the weather forecast. Meredith was 22 degrees this morning. Mink was 30 degrees and falling at 8 last night. I think high winds defeat any lake effect benefit and a hard freeze like this would lead to certain disaster. Why take chances.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Let us know if he was right. It should be close.

He has heat tape and is well set up for it, Dan will be fine.

I talked to ISS yesterday on ours, he is going to hold off until the end of the week. If we decide not to head out this weekend I will probably postpone it until next week. No need to have it on if we aren't coming up.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by codeman671

He has heat tape and is well set up for it, Dan will be fine.

This is true, BUT when I called Steve he said it was not necessary to turn the tape on so I didn't!!

I think I will send him over to check on things...

Dan

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Let us know if he was right. It should be close.

The majority of my pex lines are well contained underneath the floor of the camp. The floor and pex plines are completely insulated. The underside of the camp is also closed off with 1/4" ply sheeting. I have one exposed pex line that goes to my exterior hose connection. I don't think the cold lasted long enough to do any damage though. On cold nights such as last night, it's always warmer on the island due to the lake water being warmer. The inside of the camp always stays warm so I have no concerns there... It should be O.K.... I hope!!

For you plumbers out there, does pex resist freezing better than copper??

Dan

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

For you plumbers out there, does pex resist freezing better than copper??

Dan

I am no plumber, but PEX is superior to copper in cold weather applications. PEX insulates and hold water temp better, whereas copper does not hold heat. For instance, a pex hot water line to a sink will provide hot faster than copper as the water heats up the copper as it is providing water to the faucet.

The flexibility in the pipe helps in freezing situations as the pipe can adapt to ice buildup.

PEX cannot be used in direct sunlight and is not critter-proof.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am no plumber, but PEX is superior to copper in cold weather applications. PEX insulates and hold water temp better, whereas copper does not hold heat. For instance, a pex hot water line to a sink will provide hot faster than copper as the water heats up the copper as it is providing water to the faucet.

The flexibility in the pipe helps in freezing situations as the pipe can adapt to ice buildup.

PEX cannot be used in direct sunlight and is not critter-proof.

Does this mean that some critters actually like to nibble on this stuff?

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Does this mean that some critters actually like to nibble on this stuff?

I've worked with many plumbers who us the stuff and I've never heard of critters causing any damage. Has anyone heard first hand that this is true?

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

I've worked with many plumbers who us the stuff and I've never heard of critters causing any damage. Has anyone heard first hand that this is true?

First hit on google brings this up... http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,336618

Looks like Codeman was correct!

Dan

[fatlazyless]

...looking at the www.noaa.gov weather forcast for 03253, it looks like last night was the last real worry looking ahead......just thought nhow I should have flushed the toilet and filled it w/ rv antifreeze....which probably doesn't do anything good for the septic.....but what the hey....not-so-funny how I never thought of that item at the time......duh!.........anyway......hopefully ....will not be replacing the toilet today......keep'n my fingers crossed.....

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

...looking at the www.noaa.gov weather forcast for 03253, it looks like last night was the last real worry looking ahead......just thought nhow I should have flushed the toilet and filled it w/ rv antifreeze....which probably doesn't do anything good for the septic.....but what the hey....not-so-funny how I never thought of that item at the time......duh!.........anyway......hopefully ....will not be replacing the toilet today......keep'n my fingers crossed.....

The pink stuff is safe even to drink. Would I, no, but it is safe for drinking water systems which would make it safe for septic systems.
Good luck with your pipes.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Does this mean that some critters actually like to nibble on this stuff?

It doesn't mean they like to chew on it, but they could if they wanted to. It is still a flexible material. No mouse around is going to chew through copper.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

For you plumbers out there, does pex resist freezing better than copper??

Dan

No plumber, but we had a customer a few years back that left for a month and realized while on vacation that she should not have turned the house heating system off (hot air). She was thinking that by turning off the furnace that she was saving and the protect of water leaking was handled by turning the main water line off at the well inlet.

Anyway, she called frantic for us to go over to the house (full finished 3 story house, everyday style) and check the pipes to make sure no issues. Walked in to a house that was more frozen than I have ever seen a house, every trap blown out, toilets cracked, a complete mess. Let me tell you what made me a believer in pex was that house. All the feed lines that were frozen solid did not even drip as we brought the house up to temperature and repaired the other issues. The pex seemed to take the expansion and relieved the fittings and fixtures.

Two things that you need to remember when dealing with frozen pipes and that if handled differently could have caused a different outcome in the house above.

1. We worked in that house all day, while the heat was running and we did not open the main water line (pressurizing the system) until the house had maintained temp for a few hours.

2. All areas that do not get good heat (cabinets, floors, etc) had a small ceramic heater and a fan moving warm air around them.

In my experience with blown out pipes, it is typically the pressure of the water behind the blockage that causes the most damage and weakens the pipe causing it to burst. The second common issue is applying direct heat (torch) to a frozen line (typically heating loop lines) that create other issues during warm up. If at all possible, smooth and steady warming is best.

So in my non-plumber opinion Dan, Pex is far better than copper at dealing with freeze issues. Just remember, even in the most simple pex installs, there are copper or brass fittings somewhere and those are what you want to pay attention to as they constrict the inside diameter and are flash freeze points being metal.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by jmen24

No plumber, but we had a customer a few years back that left for a month and realized while on vacation that she should not have turned the house heating system off (hot air). She was thinking that by turning off the furnace that she was saving and the protect of water leaking was handled by turning the main water line off at the well inlet.

Anyway, she called frantic for us to go over to the house (full finished 3 story house, everyday style) and check the pipes to make sure no issues. Walked in to a house that was more frozen than I have ever seen a house, every trap blown out, toilets cracked, a complete mess. Let me tell you what made me a believer in pex was that house. All the feed lines that were frozen solid did not even drip as we brought the house up to temperature and repaired the other issues. The pex seemed to take the expansion and relieved the fittings and fixtures.

Two things that you need to remember when dealing with frozen pipes and that if handled differently could have caused a different outcome in the house above.

1. We worked in that house all day, while the heat was running and we did not open the main water line (pressurizing the system) until the house had maintained temp for a few hours.

2. All areas that do not get good heat (cabinets, floors, etc) had a small ceramic heater and a fan moving warm air around them.

In my experience with blown out pipes, it is typically the pressure of the water behind the blockage that causes the most damage and weakens the pipe causing it to burst. The second common issue is applying direct heat (torch) to a frozen line (typically heating loop lines) that create other issues during warm up. If at all possible, smooth and steady warming is best.

So in my non-plumber opinion Dan, Pex is far better than copper at dealing with freeze issues. Just remember, even in the most simple pex installs, there are copper or brass fittings somewhere and those are what you want to pay attention to as they constrict the inside diameter and are flash freeze points being metal.

My sister in law was out of town for a month this past winter when we had our one and only cold snap. One of her doors that had not been completely shut blew open because of high winds. Furnace ran until out of fuel, then the whole house froze, solid.
Short version, over 70K in damages. The biggest cost was due to radiant heat in all the floors which was all pex and at some point burst.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

My sister in law was out of town for a month this past winter when we had our one and only cold snap. One of her doors that had not been completely shut blew open because of high winds. Furnace ran until out of fuel, then the whole house froze, solid.
Short version, over 70K in damages. The biggest cost was due to radiant heat in all the floors which was all pex and at some point burst.

I believe it, the only saving grace for our client was that she shut the water off and it did not have any pressure behind the blockages. Creates an entirely different mess when the water can run.

We had a similar situation for a customer on Tenney Mountain, except it was the washing machine valve that blew on the second floor and it ran for a few days during the summer. Into 6 figures for repair and replacement of furniture.

I don't always turn the main off when going away, but I always close my washer valve!

The pressure coming out of the valve actually took the sheetrock off the walls and ceiling in the laundry closet which backed up to two bathrooms and two different bedroom walls, which also got stripped. Absolutely unbelievable to see and that was just on the second floor. Everything was gutted from the attic insulation to the crawl space.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by jmen24

I believe it, the only saving grace for our client was that she shut the water off and it did not have any pressure behind the blockages. Creates an entirely different mess when the water can run.

We had a similar situation for a customer on Tenney Mountain, except it was the washing machine valve that blew on the second floor and it ran for a few days during the summer. Into 6 figures for repair and replacement of furniture.

I don't always turn the main off when going away, but I always close my washer valve!

The pressure coming out of the valve actually took the sheetrock off the walls and ceiling in the laundry closet which backed up to two bathrooms and two different bedroom walls, which also got stripped. Absolutely unbelievable to see and that was just on the second floor. Everything was gutted from the attic insulation to the crawl space.

Fortunately no furniture was destroyed but all the hardwood floors were buckled, some 12” high. Kitchen and bathrooms both had ceramic tiles that will need to be replaced, as mentioned all radiant heating throughout the house and it all burst. The water caused a good portion of the kitchen ceiling to drop.
It is somewhere in the order of a 400K house located just north of Freeport Maine. Anyways it will be a good size paint job for me, but the contractor doing the work wasn’t very happy when my sister in law told him she had a painter in the family but what can you do.

[SAB1]

Temps next week are looking good, no one reported problems so I am going to turn it on tonite when I get up there.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by SAB1

Temps next week are looking good, no one reported problems so I am going to turn it on tonite when I get up there.

Yesterday was my first day back to work since last Thursday. I've been working on a staining 1000sqft deck. Now I've got to work all weekend or at least part of it, to make up for lost time.

[Bear Island South]

No issues at our place, the camp was a balmy 39 degrees inside when we arrived yesterday.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Let us know if he was right. It should be close.

Steve went out and checked on my camp today and all was well. Even my fully exposed pex lines did not freeze.

Hope everyone else had no issues.

Dan