Question for speed limit supporters

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Dave R

... Prior to the existence of the current speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee, why did you care how fast someone was going when they were 150 feet or more away from any other people or shore?

I cared when I was visiting my son's summer camp on Winni and I asked the director why none of his boats were out on the lake on such a beautiful day.
He explained that there were some days, mostly weekends, when the cowboy atmosphere on the lake was so bad, that he could not justify sending out children in sail boats, kayaks and canoes. He also could not allow water skiing on those days.

He didn't think a speed limit would completely solve the problem. But he did think it might reduce the weekend madness of the lake in the future.

Looks like he was right.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I cared when I was visiting my son's summer camp on Winni and I asked the director why none of his boats were out on the lake on such a beautiful day.
He explained that there were some days, mostly weekends, when the cowboy atmosphere on the lake was so bad, that he could not justify sending out children in sail boats, kayaks and canoes. He also could not allow water skiing on those days.

He didn't think a speed limit would completely solve the problem. But he did think it might reduce the weekend madness of the lake in the future.

Looks like he was right.

Being that I have a direct view head on at Camp Lawrence and am in the thick of it, the Camp director has it somewhat correct. There is plenty of madness, but it isn't a few fast boats and speed that is causing it. It is overall traffic, uneducated boaters, rental boats, lack of courtesy, and disobeyance of the existing laws that makes it a mad house in the area.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I cared when I was visiting my son's summer camp on Winni and I asked the director why none of his boats were out on the lake on such a beautiful day.
He explained that there were some days, mostly weekends, when the cowboy atmosphere on the lake was so bad, that he could not justify sending out children in sail boats, kayaks and canoes. He also could not allow water skiing on those days.

He didn't think a speed limit would completely solve the problem. But he did think it might reduce the weekend madness of the lake in the future.

Looks like he was right.

The "cowboy atmosphere" seems to be a common complaint. I firmly believe that the real problem was simply crowds that spawned large numbers of safe passage violations due to impatience and poor operation.

I think we can all agree that there's a lot fewer boats on the lake than there were 5 years ago. I think that is the number one reason why the lake may feel safer to some people.

I expect to see the crowds and "cowboy atmosphere" return once/if the economy improves. I would not be surprised if it's worse since the MP presence will likely be reduced and/or if the MP will again be tasked with silly work like patrolling no-wake zones, patrolling no-rafting zones, creating "safe passage situations" in "narrow" channels (I really hate it when they do that) and/or measuring speed.

If the economy recovers, the crowds will return and I think the speed limit will affect the cowboy atmosphere on Winnipesuakee the same way it does in MA (not at all).

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Dave R

The "cowboy atmosphere" seems to be a common complaint. I firmly believe that the real problem was simply crowds that spawned large numbers of safe passage violations due to impatience and poor operation.

I think we can all agree that there's a lot fewer boats on the lake than there were 5 years ago. I think that is the number one reason why the lake may feel safer to some people.

I expect to see the crowds and "cowboy atmosphere" return once/if the economy improves. I would not be surprised if it's worse since the MP presence will likely be reduced and/or if the MP will again be tasked with silly work like patrolling no-wake zones, patrolling no-rafting zones, creating "safe passage situations" in "narrow" channels (I really hate it when they do that) and/or measuring speed.

If the economy recovers, the crowds will return and I think the speed limit will affect the cowboy atmosphere on Winnipesuakee the same way it does in MA (not at all).

I'm sorry but I think you are incorrect.

I am a member of performance boat forums at other sites like OSO. In those forums you will find multiple declarations from performance boaters that the speed limit has caused them to go elsewhere and that they will never return to Winni while it has a speed limit.

I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits. To argue otherwise is absurd.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I'm sorry but I think you are incorrect.

I am a member of performance boat forums at other sites like OSO. In those forums you will find multiple declarations from performance boaters that the speed limit has caused them to go elsewhere and that they will never return to Winni while it has a speed limit.

I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits. To argue otherwise is absurd.

You really think the speed limit has affected boater numbers more than the economy? That seems really unlikely to me, especially considering the small percentage of boats that are performance boats.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Dave R

You really think the speed limit has affected boater numbers more than the economy? That seems really unlikely to me, especially considering the small percentage of boats that are performance boats.

I never said that. I never said anything remotely like that. I never implied that.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I never said that. I never said anything remotely like that. I never implied that.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I wrote:

"The "cowboy atmosphere" seems to be a common complaint. I firmly believe that the real problem was simply crowds that spawned large numbers of safe passage violations due to impatience and poor operation.

I think we can all agree that there's a lot fewer boats on the lake than there were 5 years ago. I think that is the number one reason why the lake may feel safer to some people.

I expect to see the crowds and "cowboy atmosphere" return once/if the economy improves. I would not be surprised if it's worse since the MP presence will likely be reduced and/or if the MP will again be tasked with silly work like patrolling no-wake zones, patrolling no-rafting zones, creating "safe passage situations" in "narrow" channels (I really hate it when they do that) and/or measuring speed.

If the economy recovers, the crowds will return and I think the speed limit will affect the cowboy atmosphere on Winnipesuakee the same way it does in MA (not at all). "

You wrote in reply:

"I'm sorry but I think you are incorrect.

I am a member of performance boat forums at other sites like OSO. In those forums you will find multiple declarations from performance boaters that the speed limit has caused them to go elsewhere and that they will never return to Winni while it has a speed limit.

I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits. To argue otherwise is absurd. "

That's the conversation I was referring to. I have no idea why you think I put words in your mouth. What exactly did you disagree with in your reply?


If you truly think the speed limit will prevent a "cowboy atmosphere", I suggest that you spend a Summer weekend on the Connecticut River in MA sometime (especially if the economy recovers). They've had a 45 MPH speed limit for years and it's mayhem. It's also incredibly easy to patrol, being a narrow river and all. Like Winni, most of the boats there are going well under 45 MPH. Take a trip and see the speed limit in action.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I never said that. I never said anything remotely like that. I never implied that.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Seriously? That is almost verbatim what you said. See your text in bold:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I'm sorry but I think you are incorrect.

I am a member of performance boat forums at other sites like OSO. In those forums you will find multiple declarations from performance boaters that the speed limit has caused them to go elsewhere and that they will never return to Winni while it has a speed limit.

I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits. To argue otherwise is absurd.

[classic22]

You have heard of the free staters moving to NH over the last several years,
but you probably have not heard of the "Nanny Staters" until now. They have also either moved into the state or have been lurking in the state for years.

Yes its true...the Nanny staters...have been successfull in pulling off this red herring, called a speed limit. There never was a problem with speed on the lake, but after convincing some naive legislators that the "children" or the "loons" can now use the lake after being terrorized for so many years, we ended up with the red herring known as a speed limit on our largest lake. Of course it took multiple attempts to get a law passed and then they got it by deception, but having a two year study enacted and then before it was complete having it made permanent. Yes the money spent with their expensive lobbyists paid off. Of course if SB 27 dies on the vine this year, we will be back until the "red herring" is exposed and we get rid of this silly Nanny state law.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Seriously? That is almost verbatim what you said. See your text in bold:

No, it's not verbatim, it isn't even close. My point was that some boats, number unknown, have left the lake because of speed limits. I made no reference to the economy or boats leaving the lake due to the economy.

However it is a perfect example of using "SPIN". Trying and put words in my mouth that I never said, never intended, and do not believe to be factual.

I actually try and think through my posts before I hit the submit button. If I wanted to make reference to the economy, I would have done so. I never put words in my opponents mouth. I wish others would show me the same courtesy.

Bear Islander-
"I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits."

Dave R-
"You really think the speed limit has affected boater numbers more than the economy? That seems really unlikely to me, especially considering the small percentage of boats that are performance boats."

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

No, it's not verbatim, it isn't even close. My point was that some boats, number unknown, have left the lake because of speed limits. I made no reference to the economy or boats leaving the lake due to the economy.

However it is a perfect example of using "SPIN". Trying and put words in my mouth that I never said, never intended, and do not believe to be factual.

I actually try and think through my posts before I hit the submit button. If I wanted to make reference to the economy, I would have done so. I never put words in my opponents mouth. I wish others would show me the same courtesy.

Bear Islander-
"I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits."

Dave R-
"You really think the speed limit has affected boater numbers more than the economy? That seems really unlikely to me, especially considering the small percentage of boats that are performance boats."

My original post was about the economy being the main reason behind lower boat numbers and your response to it began with "I'm sorry but I think you are incorrect.". No spin, just a reasonable conclusion, IMO.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

........I am a member of performance boat forums at other sites like OSO. In those forums you will find multiple declarations from performance boaters that the speed limit has caused them to go elsewhere and that they will never return to Winni while it has a speed limit.

I have no idea what the numbers are, yet clearly there are a number of boaters that have left Winni because of the speed limits. To argue otherwise is absurd........

During the early to mid-2000s and the housing price bubble, many boats (all types) were paid for with equity loans or re-fi's. That money source is now gone. Even with an "economic recovery" the housing sector is still in shambles post-bubble so it's not likely we'll see that return anytime soon either.

My wife works in banking and can tell you many stories of people who would get 75k equity lines of credit and use the whole thing in one check for things like boats, cars, RVs, etc. Now, that same recreational crowd has to get consumer loans and have to put money down.....

[MAXUM]

The truth of the matter is simple, the SL was never about speed, it was all about creating an environment that would discourage performance boats from being used on the lake. The speed limit idea was just a less offensive way to frame the argument. Fact is the SL has done nothing to improve safety and accidents at ANY speed can result in fatalities.

It's a crock of (bleep) if you ask me.

[BroadHopper]

Shortly after Lake George enact their SL, property values have increased. When WinFabs found out they decided to increase the value of their property by doing the same. Funny thing, lake front property have increased every where so it was irrelevant. But it did not deter the Lake George SL supporters story. WinFabs was touting Lake George as an example until a boater decapitated himself when he was going to close to a swim raft with a dive board. He was under the SL but will be violating our 150 ft law. Someone with a big a$$ cruiser swamped a tour boat with his wake resulting in changing laws governing tour boats. I think the tour boat was overloaded.

The SL law did not remove the 'cowboy' atmosphere from Lake George. So Winfabs decided not to use Lake George as an example.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I cared when I was visiting my son's summer camp on Winni and I asked the director why none of his boats were out on the lake on such a beautiful day.
He explained that there were some days, mostly weekends, when the cowboy atmosphere on the lake was so bad, that he could not justify sending out children in sail boats, kayaks and canoes. He also could not allow water skiing on those days.

He didn't think a speed limit would completely solve the problem. But he did think it might reduce the weekend madness of the lake in the future.

Looks like he was right.

BI, your argument doesn't hold much water and neither does the camp director's. I've seen camps where they had their little flotilla of sailboatsand from what I have witnessed over and over again is people largely stay away from them.

Your argument would have people believe there is not enough room for the camps and boaters. Pick the busiest day of summer boat traffic and I can find spots on the lake with no boats and plenty of room to operate any type of vessel you want be it sail, kayak, canoe, waterbike, etc.

In fact, I've seen the little flotillas of camp boats where if you really want to be a hard case the sailboats should all have been cited with violating the safe passage rule as they are above headway speed and close to each other. Or, do you think the MP should just look the other way because they are campers?

[Colby]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I cared when I was visiting my son's summer camp on Winni and I asked the director why none of his boats were out on the lake on such a beautiful day.
He explained that there were some days, mostly weekends, when the cowboy atmosphere on the lake was so bad, that he could not justify sending out children in sail boats, kayaks and canoes. He also could not allow water skiing on those days.

He didn't think a speed limit would completely solve the problem. But he did think it might reduce the weekend madness of the lake in the future.

Looks like he was right.

Some nice sunny summer weekends bring out a lot of boats to the lake no doubt about it. Is it crowded because of speed? I doubt it. Campers are not the only ones who may decide not to boat on those certain busy weekends. If I want to boat on one of those nice summer weekends I know when to do it to avoid the crowds. I go out before 10 AM and after 5 PM. Even on the busiest of weekend days there are not many out in the morning and around dinner time. In fact the lake often flattens out after 5 PM and it is better for water skiing.

Fast or slow there are busy times and places on the weekends. Bear Islander, ask the camp directors why they are not using the lake on the busy weekends now. Speed limits are not the answer.

If camp directors have a problem with boaters breaking the law they should call the Marine Patrol. All the laws prior to the Speed Limit law would take care of any problems. The speed limit restricts a very small percentage of boaters.

The lake can get too crowded on a nice weekend. IF you believe that more boats will come to the lake now that there are permanent speed limits then the weeekends will be even more crowded with boats. What will the camp directors use for an excuse then?

Speed limits will not reduce the number of boats on the lake on a sunny summer weekend it will probably lead to an even more crowded lake.

[NHBUOY]

...there you go...talkin all sensible......and a one finger salute (thumbzup)...to C......

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Colby

Some nice sunny summer weekends bring out a lot of boats to the lake no doubt about it. Is it crowded because of speed? I doubt it. Campers are not the only ones who may decide not to boat on those certain busy weekends. If I want to boat on one of those nice summer weekends I know when to do it to avoid the crowds. I go out before 10 AM and after 5 PM. Even on the busiest of weekend days there are not many out in the morning and around dinner time. In fact the lake often flattens out after 5 PM and it is better for water skiing.

Fast or slow there are busy times and places on the weekends. Bear Islander, ask the camp directors why they are not using the lake on the busy weekends now. Speed limits are not the answer.

If camp directors have a problem with boaters breaking the law they should call the Marine Patrol. All the laws prior to the Speed Limit law would take care of any problems. The speed limit restricts a very small percentage of boaters.

The lake can get too crowded on a nice weekend. IF you believe that more boats will come to the lake now that there are permanent speed limits then the weeekends will be even more crowded with boats. What will the camp directors use for an excuse then?

Speed limits will not reduce the number of boats on the lake on a sunny summer weekend it will probably lead to an even more crowded lake.

It's funny how so many people think they know more than the experts. You see it all the time, people that have never been in law enforcement but they know more about it than the police do. People that have never taught a class but know more about it than teachers do.

People that have never directed a camp but they know more about running a camp than camp directors do.

The 191 Children's Camp Directors that comprise the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association voted UNANIMOUSLY to support speed limits. But hey, what do they know.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It's funny how so many people think they know more than the experts.

The 191 Children's Camp Directors that comprise the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association voted UNANIMOUSLY to support speed limits. But hey, what do they know.

Good question. Tell me, what do camp directors know? What sort of qualifications does one need to become camp director? How do those qualifications apply to the science of judging safe boat operating speeds? Why should camp director opinions about boating speed limits carry more weight than the opinion of the director of NH Marine Patrol? Why should anyone care what camp directors think about anything but directing camps? What do camp directors do for the 10 months that camps are closed?

I agree, it's funny how so many (at least 191) people think they know more than the experts.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Dave R

What do camp directors do for the 10 months that camps are closed? .

They are school teachers. They TEACH your children. NB

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It's funny how so many people think they know more than the experts. You see it all the time, people that have never been in law enforcement but they know more about it than the police do. People that have never taught a class but know more about it than teachers do.

People that have never directed a camp but they know more about running a camp than camp directors do.

The 191 Children's Camp Directors that comprise the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association voted UNANIMOUSLY to support speed limits. But hey, what do they know.

EXPERTS: ??? How dare anyone challenge the experts. Maybe Common Sence works better than Advanced Degrees....from the "Halls Of Ivy". Would you be more impressed if I had (PHD) after my name,?? NB

[Chimi]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It's funny how so many people think they know more than the experts. You see it all the time, people that have never been in law enforcement but they know more about it than the police do. People that have never taught a class but know more about it than teachers do.

People that have never directed a camp but they know more about running a camp than camp directors do.

The 191 Children's Camp Directors that comprise the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association voted UNANIMOUSLY to support speed limits. But hey, what do they know.

These same camp directors lobbied the legislature to remove a provision in a recent bill that would have required a whistle or horn in a "human powered" vessel. Sure, they care about kids and safety!! Let's hear it BI - "oh, they only care about one issue - speed limits. They don't care about safety, global warming, the devaluation of the dollar, the price of gas, whale hunting or Darfur." When will people see through all this rubbish anyway? Answer: Never.

[NHBUOY]

...Hey GRneck..awesome first-hand account of your encounter with badly behaved, disrespectful, and ignorant children...under SUPERVISION of a "camp counselor"...typical, and makes you wonder what their PARENTS are like.?....I go deaf and see red when people make the "It's to save the children..." argument...in my mind, camps = glorified baby-sitters these days...I stand by the "..use your common sense, or SOMEBODY is going to regulate the regulations..." for you...and DON'T be pee'in on my leg and tell me it's raining......COWBOY, as defined by the people who use the term with disdain, is usually used to describe someone having way too much fun, than the person using the term "COWBOY"....just sayin...

[Grandpa Redneck]

Nhbuoy absolutly right the cars around that camp on drop off and pickup days are high end, BMW, mercedes, cadilacs, Lincolns, etc with Mass and NY plates.

[NHBUOY]

...check out the front page of the "Boating & Recreation Guide/2011" that Weirs Times produces with NHBM...it just made me chuckle......