Furnace Problem ?

[bigdog]

SIKSUKR
Ignitier spark was marginal but OK, during first test, the Technician performed early in the morning, but when he came back later in the afternoon, after furnace went out again, there was litterally little if any spark, DOA !
Igniter was replaced Monday, today is Sat., and furnace appears to be running OK, at least it hasn't shudown, since new Igniter part was replaced.

You mentioned 'Transformer' ? That was replaced last Fall 2010.
So you're saying a bad Transformer will affect the amount of spark the Igniter module will create?

Kamper
My Burner Technician did that same test you described with Iignitor coil. LaMy tech did same, laying a screw driver across the 2 coil elemnets, to test the spark. Origianl Igniter proed to have no spark. Replacement Igniter spark was at least 1". Seem to do the trick.

As far as blower motor, replaced that previous Jan (2010) ! $$$


Thanks guys for all the valuable info., much appreciaited!

BD

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by bigdog

SIKSUKR

You mentioned 'Transformer' ? That was replaced last Fall 2010.
So you're saying a bad Transformer will affect the amount of spark the Igniter module will create?

BD

Oh yes. The transformer gives the ignitor, which is basically like a spark plug, the necessary voltage to generate that spark. It puts out somewhere around 10,000 volts.

[bigdog]

More furnace issues..... Or maybe just the same one?
FYI, this is an oil furnace heating by FHW.

Furnace just has never really never woked smoothly, for any long length of time. By that I mean like 2-3 weeks time. Over the winter, I've spent over $1000 on labor and parts, and I'm probably underestimating...

Since last year, I think I've replaced all the major components on the furnace, including 'powerr venter'. Latest issue was noticed upon recent arrival to house, after a one week absence. Furnace was off, so I pushed the 'reset button' on furnace, and it came on first attempt. Prior to this, thermostats on both floors of house were set around 55 degrees. After furnace came on, I set the thermostats at 60 degrees, and have left there. That was 2 days ago.

Just went to draw hot water and noticed it was 'luke-warm' !
Checked furnace, and it was 'off' ! @$*(@^$_*(@^*$_@*(^$#&*(^$*
Anyway, hit reset and furnace came on again.

I've had two different oil dealers service this furnace in the last year and a half. I've changed oil dealers b/c I didn't like the service I was given for one reason or another. Enough said ! These guys are suppose to be the
so-called experts, that's why they charge you $80-100 per hour.

I've explained the issue with furnace shutting down, to both oil dealers, and they both completely checked thw system, and cannot identify what is causing furnace to shut down at any given time.?

TG is Spingtime, and not threat of freezing can occur, especially when I may be away from property.

Probably going to seek another oil dealer service, maybe a third source will have a better idea, about furnace shutdown for no reason ?

#1 - Has anyone on the Forum experienced furnace issues as I've described?

#2 - Shouldn't I be able to lower my furnace to say 50-55 degree,
without the furnace shutting off? Or is there possibly some type fo 'low-limit' swithch on furnaces, that will shut down system automatically, if it reaches a low temp?

Any help or information is greatly apprecaited !

BD

[Rusty]

Did your service people check the photo cell to see if it was dirty or not working? This will shut your burner down if not working properly or dirty. It will startup and run for an extended period of time but will shut down if it doesn’t see a flame.
If your burner is running rich it will clog up the photocell eye and shut the burner down. You can tell if your burner is running rich by looking at the nozzle and the cage around the nozzle. If they are black with soot it could cause a problem with the eye.

As you know the way oil burners work is oil is sprayed through a nozzle at high pressure (at least 100 psig) and is ignited by an electric spark from a high voltage transformer.
Once the oil starts burning there is either a photo cell to detect light from the flame or a thermostat in the stack (chimney) that detects heat from the fire and needs to see it within a certain period of time (usually 45) seconds or it will shut the burner off.
If the flame is not established the circuitry on the control properly called the "Primary" will activate an electric heater on a thermal relay that will pop open after the 45 second time period. After this happens you have to reset the control (after it cools) and you have another 45 seconds.
Newer controls may have an electronic system that gives you like 2 tries to get the oil burner started before it gives up then you must follow a procedure to clear the fault.

[bigdog]

Thanks Rusty, very informative feedback.

I know I don't have a thermostat in the stack chimney, so where is this "photo cell" located?

FYI, I have a fairly new Honeywell Primary Oil Control (R7184U) 9 months old, and Beckett Ignitor module, less than 3 mos. old. Contacts adjusted at time of installation.

Not sure if Ignitor or control chamber, or stack full os soot? Would think oil dealer(s) would have checked those things at the time parts were replaced
They're the experts right? I'm just the consumer, writing the checks !

Is the 'photo cell' located in or around the furnace chamber, or maybe in the
"Primary Oil Control " housing?

Thanks,
BD

[ITD]

If the reset is tripped, then it is either not lighting or going out some time after it lights. I'd check the photo cell as Rusty suggests, make sure all connections are good (pull on wires that are in connectors (gently), they should not pull out of the connectors). Other problem could be air getting in the oil line, but the system would probably not restart if this were happening. If the photo eye is sooted up then the burner is not set correctly and needs to be adjusted. Obviously you've checked that you have enough oil in the tank.......

[ITD]

Manual on your controller.... http://www.forwardthinking.honeywell...ll/69_1459.pdf

Don't blow yourself up...

[bigdog]

Thanks ITD for link on Honeywell Controller.

BTW, the last time I hit reset button, I held in for about 10 seconds then released. After about 15-20 seconds the burner kiked on and a huge blast of black smoke, came out my power venter. I suspect as a reults of an accumulation of oil in the combustion chamber. Next time, I'll just hit the reset button and release immediately ! Can you say KA-BOOM ! Not funny !

FYI, service tech also replace wom type of swithc on the power vent recently. As you know, if the power venter is not working, you'll NEVER start the furnace. It's a built-in safety feature. Darn powere ventors, I hate them, lots of trouble.

Also, which I didn't mention, is the furnace is located in a small outside room
(8x3) attached to the main building, but definitely separate. Have been told that this furnace room space, may not be getting enough air-flow exchange into the area, which could cause a shut-down of furnace. Also I guess a possibility ? Sort of makes ense ?

Will check wires in control module and photo cell next.

Thanks,
BD

[ITD]

From what you are describing I would suspect the ignitor system. The electrodes have to be located properly with the proper gap for the burner to light correctly, sounds like you have replaced most of the other parts although sometimes you get infant mortality.

If it were an issue with the power vent, the burner would not get the chance to light so the reset button would not get the chance to trip.

My guess anyway.

Page 5 of this manual shows the measurements for this particular model burner. It's important that they measure this with a gage or a ruler, a lot of guys just eyeball it......... I wouldn't mess with this unless you know how to open the burner up, but I wouldn't hesitate to look over the guy's shoulder and ask questions.

http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/t...AF%20R0803.pdf

[bigdog]

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.
I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by bigdog

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

I have a Carlin burner and it is under the transformer/primary control. When you flip it up you can see the CAD cell and it looks like this:

[VitaBene]

Rusty has given you some great info.

Unfortunately, it seems like your technicians are not diagnosing the problem, but instead are throwing parts at it. This is usually a sign of someone who lacks good troubleshooting skills, perhaps you need to try a different company?

[RLW]

Originally Posted by bigdog

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.
I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

If you had a half a** tech come into your house to service your burner 99.9% of all the suggestions given would have bee checked for proper service. I'm not sure there really is such a person as an EXPERT burner servicemen. Time makes knowledge, but defiantly not and expert.

[bigdog]

ITW,

Couldn't agree with your comments more.......

Spent a lot of $$$ and getiing half-***** service.

Hopefully, the next "new guys" on site will resolve my issue. That's a big TBD.

BD

[SPT13]

Bigdog,
have you called Weil McLean at all? I had a situation like yours yrs ago and after watching guys change parts and having the same issues I called the manufacturer. I told them the problem, and they recommended a local guy who knew the furnace like the back of his hand. He had me up and running soon with no issues. Good luck!

[SAMIAM]

Lesson to be learned is...shop carefully for a service company.Get recommendations from friends and neighbors.Makes me crazy when I call for service and they send some lunkhead that doesn't know what he's doing.You pay a service charge,travel charge,gas surcharge,labor rates as high as $85 and outrageous mark up on parts only to find it's still not working.So you call them back and they try something else that fixes the problem ...or maybe not.You just keep paying for someone to experiment until they stumble on the solution.
Even had a refigeration guy charge me for 2 techs at $85/hr only to find out the guy had his 10 year old son with him running for tools.
We have great luck with Lakeside Plumbing for heating and plumbing issues.The usually get it right the first time.When you call their office you get a real person and the gals that answer the phone can diagnose as good as any of the techs.They show up when promised and have emergency service.

[bigdog]

More feedback to Forum regarding furnace problem.....

Just checked 'photo-cell', and it appears to be brand new. The Beckett Igniter module was recently replaced, and it looks like the photo cell, came included new and packaged with that module. I did clean the photo cell eye, and checked all wires, and all appears to be fine.

Furnace will start, and run for a while, but at various intervals will shut down w/o reason?

Primary Control goes into a 'restricted/lock-out sttate, but seems I can always reset w/o issues. When I do reset and furnaces starts, I get a huge plume of black smoke, ejected out my power-venter. I suspect this as a result of built-up oil, inthe burner chamber which did not origianilly ignite?
Guessing?

Next step will be to call Weil McClain to get some input from them. Maybe mu issues, is something, common to this brand of furnace, that requires specific settings? Also have called another P & H contractor recommended by a Forum member, and will be coming to house to review the issue.

Thanks,
Bigdog

[ITD]

If you checked the cad cell, you were a couple of steps away from removing the nozzle/electrode assy. If you are comfortable, you can give this a try, I'm thinking the electrodes are bad or more likely from your prior description of how it was installed last time, just not installed correctly. Good luck, don't blow yourself up.

[sparky63]

Originally Posted by bigdog

More feedback to Forum regarding furnace problem.....

Just checked 'photo-cell', and it appears to be brand new. The Beckett Igniter module was recently replaced, and it looks like the photo cell, came included new and packaged with that module. I did clean the photo cell eye, and checked all wires, and all appears to be fine.

Furnace will start, and run for a while, but at various intervals will shut down w/o reason?

Primary Control goes into a 'restricted/lock-out sttate, but seems I can always reset w/o issues. When I do reset and furnaces starts, I get a huge plume of black smoke, ejected out my power-venter. I suspect this as a result of built-up oil, inthe burner chamber which did not origianilly ignite?
Guessing?

Next step will be to call Weil McClain to get some input from them. Maybe mu issues, is something, common to this brand of furnace, that requires specific settings? Also have called another P & H contractor recommended by a Forum member, and will be coming to house to review the issue.

Thanks,
Bigdog

Hi Bigdog
Im a tech for a large oil company . from what you are discribing everything is working right up to the point of ingition ( I get a huge plume of black smoke, ejected out my power-venter.) you need 3 things to make combustion you also need them in the right amounts to much air will lean out the mixture to the point of not firing. to little spark will also not let it fire

[sparky63]

bigdog pm me mby i can help i'm not much for typing