building Winni Sailing

[VitaBene]

Tobey, He has answered your questions- you may not like the answers but he has answered them. Please don't try to tell me that the campground is always peaceful and serene. If so, it is unlike any campground I have ever stayed at.

Somehow I think if you and some of your fellow campers decide to find another place to stay, there will be others that will take your spot.

[Tobey]

Mr Bean, are you a sailor?
Do you know Tom?
Are you a member of the sailing club?

I am asking fair and reasonable questions.
They all have not been answered.

[jrc]

I'm a little fuzzy on the docking facilities that are there now. Can people launch boats and dock them now? Is this for the general public or just for people renting a camp site?

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by jrc

I'm a little fuzzy on the docking facilities that are there now. Can people launch boats and dock them now? Is this for the general public or just for people renting a camp site?

There are no docking facilities there now. There is a soft sand dirt rd which leads into very very shallow water. Only the smallest of boats with 4 WD could possibly launch there. Bizer does not even list this as a launch on there map.

Dan

[VitaBene]

I do not know Mr Mullen, nor ever spoken with him. I am not a member of his organization, nor much of a sailor (though I have a Laser).

I am a supporter of his group because I see the kids sailing and having a blast doing so. My kids are 12 and 15 and I hope they decide to learn to sail.

As a design professional (security consultant), I have been involved in hundreds of construction projects. Mr Mullen has answered the questions that can be answered at this time. It appears to me that they are still very much in the conceptual design phase. As OCD noted, the other questions cannot be reasonably answered yet because the design has not evolved to even the design development phase, let alone construction documents phase.

Mr Mullen, if you have any security needs or considerations, I will gladly donate my time and services to your cause. Send me a PM to discuss further if you are interested.

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I do not know Mr Mullen, nor ever spoken with him. I am not a member of his organization, nor much of a sailor (though I have a Laser).

I am a supporter of his group because I see the kids sailing and having a blast doing so. My kids are 12 and 15 and I hope they decide to learn to sail.

As a design professional (security consultant), I have been involved in hundreds of construction projects. Mr Mullen has answered the questions that can be answered at this time. It appears to me that they are still very much in the conceptual design phase. As OCD noted, the other questions cannot be reasonably answered yet because the design has not evolved to even the design development phase, let alone construction documents phase.

Mr Mullen, if you have any security needs or considerations, I will gladly donate my time and services to your cause. Send me a PM to discuss further if you are interested.

Hello Vita Bene,

I would like to be in contact with you. Please e-mail me at [email protected] with an e-mail address. Thanks

Tom Mullen

[ApS]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I am a supporter of his group because I see the kids sailing and having a blast doing so. My kids are 12 and 15 and I hope they decide to learn to sail...Mr Mullen, if you have any security needs or considerations, I will gladly donate my time and services to your cause. Send me a PM to discuss further if you are interested.

Perhaps Mr. Mullen has discussed instruction for your kids.

Excellence in sailing is complicated, and racing among sailboats even more so. The 15-year-old is unlikely to take up this study and a Laser is also not the boat to begin this study. IMHO.

Study of both racing and sailing needs to be nourished from an earlier age—and even 12 is borderline-late. While I understand the need for "befriending", one should use the "bully-pulpit" that is Parenting, and actually encourage sailing instruction.

In our culture, the spirit of competition remains a healthy one, and one cannot learn it too young.

JMHO.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Perhaps Mr. Mullen has discussed instruction for your kids.

Excellence in sailing is complicated, and racing among sailboats even more so. The 15-year-old is unlikely to take up this study and a Laser is also not the boat to begin this study. IMHO.

Study of both racing and sailing needs to be nourished from an earlier age—and even 12 is borderline-late. While I understand the need for "befriending", one should use the "bully-pulpit" that is Parenting, and actually encourage sailing instruction.

In our culture, the spirit of competition remains a healthy one, and one cannot learn it too young.

JMHO.

Agreed on the competition aspect of life and its importance in our culture. They are both heavily involved in Moultonborough Academy sports including baseball, volleyball, alpine and nordic skiing so I am not too concerned about that. I will note that my 15 yo son has taken up the sport of girl chasin' so boating is on the back burner!

We have led both kids to the proverbial "sailing water" but neither have embraced it. We will see, but I agree, the older they get the less likely they are to pick it up.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

There is a soft sand dirt rd which leads into very very shallow water. Only the smallest of boats with 4 WD could possibly launch there. Dan

My boat doesn't have 4wd so I guess I'm out.It does sound like I'd be fine launching my PWC with my 4wd though.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

There are no docking facilities there now. There is a soft sand dirt rd which leads into very very shallow water. Only the smallest of boats with 4 WD could possibly launch there. Bizer does not even list this as a launch on there map.

Dan

Thank god..

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Tobey

Mr Bean, are you a sailor?
Do you know Tom?
Are you a member of the sailing club?

I am asking fair and reasonable questions.
They all have not been answered.

I believe you mean Mr. "Bene" if we are getting so nit picky.

What is the significance if they do know each other?

Why would it matter if he was part of the sailing club? Does this make his opinion any less or more valid?

Fair and Reasonable? From my understanding the planning phase is still underway... How is it fair and reasonable to ask what policy will be on air conditioning and windows being open for functions?

While you may have concerns with the impact of the facility I don't think it is prudent to question the organizations intentions on bringing a great activity to the lake and the means in which to do it. This sounds to be a very well thought out and planned facility that takes into account its surroundings and asthetics to the lake and its region.

I think it is you who are trying to find any issue with Mr. Mullen's responses that have been very well thought out and answered to the best extent possible at this point in the process.

I am sure your "large group of campers" that you represent will not be inconvenienced to the extent that you are portraying.

So lets try to keep the questions civil and on target. I think Mr. Mullen has done a very good job in this thread trying to answer each and everyone's concerns, even though many comments could have been viewed as less then inviting.

[ishoot308]

I think Mr. Mullen has done an excellent job of DIRECTLY answering all questions and concerns asked of him pertaining to the sailing center in a very courteous manner. I commend him in his responses. And no, I am not a member or have any affiliation to the LWSA nor do I own a sailboat.

Dan

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by Tobey

Mr Bean, are you a sailor?
Do you know Tom?
Are you a member of the sailing club?

I am asking fair and reasonable questions.
They all have not been answered.

Hello Tobey,

I have tried to answer all of your question, but there was no response to my last post. Are you satisfied with those answers and/or do you have any more questions or concerns I can address at this time. Thanks for involving yourself in the dialogue.

Regards,

Tom Mullen

[ApS]

1) Mr. Bean:

Alpine and Nordic skiing is especially damaging to young joints and limbs. (I know ).

Without intervention, those problems don't improve with age, and I'll wager many here on this forum can attest to that. Many here already have mentioned joint surgeries.

Just down the street from Gunstock's ski-slopes is an orthopedic clinic!

2) Mr. Mullen has stated that "any two sailboats is a race": Having vanquished many an "advantaged" boat, I can agree with that.

Try buying a second Laser, then "Lead By Example".

I guarantee you will eventually lose any advantage you claim through "Age and Experience".

3) Mr. Mullen:

There is no shoreline more difficult to sail from, than one that faces into Winnipesaukee's prevailing wind. Expect beginning sailors—especially—to damage every sailboat under this circumstance.

Into which direction does this proposed shoreline face?

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) Mr. Bean:

Alpine and Nordic skiing is especially damaging to young joints and limbs. (I know ).

Without intervention, those problems don't improve with age, and I'll wager many here on this forum can attest to that. Many here already have mentioned joint surgeries.

Just down the street from Gunstock's ski-slopes is an orthopedic clinic!

2) Mr. Mullen has stated that "any two sailboats is a race": Having vanquished many an "advantaged" boat, I can agree with that.

Try buying a second Laser, then "Lead By Example".

I guarantee you will eventually lose any advantage you claim through "Age and Experience".

3) Mr. Mullen:

There is no shoreline more difficult to sail from, than one that faces into Winnipesaukee's prevailing wind. Expect beginning sailors—especially—to damage every sailboat under this circumstance.

Into which direction does this proposed shoreline face?

Hello Acres Per Second,

You are absolutely correct that beginning sailors would have a degree of difficulty sailing off a lee shore and oftentimes, Ellacoya is just that when the winds are strong out of the north or the northwest. To evaluate this issue regarding Ellacoya, nearly every morning and sometimes in the afternoons as well, as I travelled between Glendale and my home on Welch Island, I buzzed down to Ellacoya to give consideration to this matter. During the summer months when we are teaching the kids how to sail, it turns out, at least this most recent summer, that northwest was not the predominant wind direction. Winds this past summer, especially during July and August when our Youth Sailing School is in session, were out of the south and the west far more often than from the northwest making Ellacoya a very sheltered sailing venue.

It appears that during the fall, the predominant wind pattern shifts to the northwest and we will have to deal with this reality as we structure our approach to sailing instruction. In the fall, we will be teaching adults more often than not and there will be times that we may not be able to risk taking inexperienced sailors in boats off the moorings and out of the boat basin.

Fortunately the lake bottom all along Ellacoya is sandy and pretty shallow so when and if a boat does go aground, getting the small, light boats we use upright is not an especially difficult task.

To confirm my observations, I downloaded the wind data from the Laconia Airport for the period from May 1st theough the middle of October and there were only five days during that entire period when the data suggested we would have to curtail operations for Youth Sailing and only therr of those were during the months the school is in session.

These are realities we can live with as the pro's at Ellacoya far outweigh the con's. Thanks for weighing in on the issues and please keep your comments and or concerns coming so we can be sure to cover all the possible issues during these planning stages.

Regards,

Tom Mullen

[Tobey]

Into which direction does this proposed shoreline face? [/QUOTE]


It faces directly into the North West - west wind.

Almost everytime I RV there I see this nasty wind at one time or another.

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by Tobey

Into which direction does this proposed shoreline face?

It faces directly into the North West - west wind.

Almost everytime I RV there I see this nasty wind at one time or another.[/QUOTE]

Hello Tobey,

You're right! The wind that comes out of the north by northwest toward Ellacoya can be very strong and there is a pretty good fetch so that when it's windy from that direction, the waves are also pretty high.

Using the data from the Laconia Airport weather station and from personal observations during the period from May 1st through October 16th, I came up with twelve days between 8:00 am to 8:00 pm, the normal operating hours that the new Sailing Center would be open and that sailors might be out on the water, that I would put into the category of unsafe and imprudent to be out on the water unless the sailor(s) are very competent. Of those twelve days, five were days that we would be flying the No Sailing Today Flag.

So, five days out of 199 days, or 2.5% of the 2010 sailing season, we would not have allowed the Sailing Center's boats to be out on the water. For nine additional days during this same period, or 4.5% of the sailing season, we would have required proof of competency before the Sailing Center's boats could have left the docks.

During the period that the Sailing School normally operates from late June through late August, there were three days that it was too windy out of the northwest (315 degrees) around to the northeast (45 degrees) to go out on the water if the school had been functioning at Ellacoya. Fortunately, the waters around Ellacoya are pretty well sheltered when the winds blow heavily from the east (90 degrees) around through the south all the way to the west-northwest (290 degrees).

Because we have been operating for nearly thirty years out of Inner Smith Cove at Fay's Boatyard, we have developed fairly ingenious ways of getting from those waters out to where there is wind by towing our sailboats in a chain using a power boat. There may be times at Ellacoya when we may have to tow the boats up into the lee of Welch Island or around the point and down to the waters off Ames Farm Inn to get to waters where the wind allows us to teach the students effectively.

I assure you that we have weighed these types of issues carefully before making a decision to move to Ellacoya. Where we sail now borders on being dangerous for the youngsters because of boat traffic. The waters off Ellacoya are not within a passage zone and are not, therefore, heavily traveled. The areas around Varney Point, Lockes Island and Belknap Point are an accident waiting to happen.

Over the years, because of inclement weather, sometimes too much wind and occasionally, no wind, we have learned how to use these down times by operating in a classroom format with a chalkboard, photos, a model boat, a full sized Opti right in the room, DVD's and ropes for tying knots. Bad weather days don't go to waste in the LWSA's Youth Sailing School.

Because it's so shallow at Ellacoya, we will be able to teach the little ones in our fleet of Optimist Prams with an instructor standing in the water right next to the boats without having to follow them around in a chase boat -- a novel approach that I have seen work very effectively in the British Virgin Islands. The kids actually sail in a tight circle right around the instructors getting constant tips on sail trim and various maneuvers.

Ellacoya has its drawbacks we will learn to live with and it has advantages we will exploit to the betterment of our programs. It is our conclusion that the advantages far outweigh the drawbacks and it is our goal to be in full operation by July of 2012.

Regards,

Tom Mullen

[Lucky1]

I think my daughter took up sailing around age 15.

[Tobey]

Tom, I am curious. Not being from the region I do not know of all the the other potential spots on the lake that would/could accomadate your program. I do understand the lake is very very large. Have you looked elswhere?
I am not against the kids sailing program, it's just the fact I am having a hard time dealing with the thought this park may not be as enjoyable for us RV folks due to continual traffic on the east side road to beach and noise associated with functions that may go on. Guess you do need them (functions) to support your cause.

Thanks for listening and replying. Maybe this is not so bad as I find myself searching other RV opportunites in New England. Maybe I'll try the Ocean parks.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a suggestion: While the Ellacoya State Beach & RV Park charges $47/night, the US Forest Service operates 23 different campgrounds in the White Mountain National Forest in NH and just over the border, in Maine, that cost $16/night, plus further discounts (senior-65 pass or something) are available. While the WMNF Campgrounds do not have any utility hookups like water-sewer-electricity-cable, some have showers and toilets w/ running water, and all have campsites with a picnic table, campfire pit, parking for two vehicles, composting toilets, trash dumpsters, potable water, volunteer campground supervisors on-site, and Forest Service law enforcement (cops), plus the locations were picked for their highly desirable geography such as a view, river, lake etc.

So, what's not to like......$16-federal....or $47-state?

In addition, the federal campgrounds are exempt of the State of NH, 9% lodging & meals tax, which applies to State RV Campgrounds like Ellecoya....because they are federal.

http://www.newhampshire.com/outdoors...tn-forest.aspx

....

If you want a campground on a big water lake, the State of Maine has a good one on Sebago Lake, about one hour from Moultonborough.

http://www.maine.gov/cgi-bin/online/...search_info.pl and scroll down to Sebago Lake State Park for a 250 rv campsite, State of Maine campground, within a 1400-acre state park on Sebago lake, which is a lake that is a little larger in area than Lake Winnipesaukee. ...just a thought...

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by Tobey

Tom, I am curious. Not being from the region I do not know of all the the other potential spots on the lake that would/could accomadate your program. I do understand the lake is very very large. Have you looked elswhere?
I am not against the kids sailing program, it's just the fact I am having a hard time dealing with the thought this park may not be as enjoyable for us RV folks due to continual traffic on the east side road to beach and noise associated with functions that may go on. Guess you do need them (functions) to support your cause.

Thanks for listening and replying. Maybe this is not so bad as I find myself searching other RV opportunites in New England. Maybe I'll try the Ocean parks.

Hello Tobey,

Your thoughts, comments and concerns, presented in your recent post in a very constructive manner by the way, deserve a similiar response. The possibility that our use of the Ellacoya waterfront might disturb occupants of the RV facility is very much in the forefront of our minds. You are already there and we're new on the scene. Just that fact alone means we have an obligation to go to considerable lengths to minimize and hopefull prevent any disruption of your enjoyment of the campground.

The LWSA will bring change to Ellacoya. We are cognizant of this fact and we must, therefore, do all that we can to have those changes be net positive. It would be ludicrous for us to try to pretend that the heightened level of activity created by our presence will be welcomed by everyone. As you point out, and as I have already anticipated, there will be a lot more vehicles going up and down the east side road that borders one row of the RV sites. This means we will need to consider improvements to and along that roadway to make sure we don't negatively impact the use of the sites. Here are some of the measures I am considering employing, obviously, subject to approval from DRED:

1. Dust stirred up by cars will be a problem. I am hopeful we can get that roadway hard surfaced. This is about a $45,000 expense and I will be trying to get this donated by one or more of the local firms in the paving business. Another option could be surfacing the roadway with crushed stone. Regardless of the cost factors involved, the dust stirred up by passing cars during hot, dry periods will have to be addressed and effectively dealt with.

2. The visual aesthetics of having cars passing by a campsite on a regular basis also leave something to be desired. I believe we can reduce the visual impact of this reality by placing a fence down the length of the wooden guardrail that's there now. Again, this will be a substantial cost item
that could bust our budget, but it is needs to be addressed.

3. Functions in the building will be a necessary evil as the income from same will be a crucial factor in the affordability of the complex. For the sake of the residents of Lake Shore Park and the RV sites as well, the LWSA will have to curtail the hours of and the number of attendees at such events to be sure the impact of such things as bands and outdoor events do not unduly encroach on the peace of neighboring sites. This will be a multi-faceted sailing center and holding functions will be incidental to the use of the facility -- necessary, but limited in scope and frequency.

I am a bit troubled by your comment that you are starting to look elsewhere for other RV sites to visit out of concern that the character of Ellacoya, once our sailing center is located there, may not be to your liking. I believe the LWSA's presence there will change some of the site's character, but I also believe those changes will be positive in nature and not intrusive. I believe the visual impact of what we'll be doing will be interesting and enjoyable. Sitting at a picnic bench along the seawall to the west of our complex and watching our Sailing School students learning how to sail will be fun and visually enjoyable. I am confident that the residents of Lake Shore Park will learn, not only to accept the presence of the new Sailing Center, but they will embrace it as a fundemental improvement in the quality of the Park's residents' lives, especially the Park's youngsters.

For many years, the LWSA has been on the lookout for other sites along the lake for this new facility. Even now, as we move forward with the design and approval process, we welcome any thoughts or suggestions as to alternative sites. Because the costs of building the complex will be daunting, the cost of purchasing a site would have to be deminimis. The location pretty much in the middle of the lake on a north/south basis is also strategically important and Ellacoya fits that bill perfectly.

Tobey, give us a chance to get established and up and operating before you conclude you need to go elsewhere with your RV for peace and quiet. One of the reasons the LWSA likes the site is for its natural beauty and its tranquility. There will be a noticeable increase in the amount of activity once we're up and running, but there will also be extended periods when that level of activity will be very restrained and minimal. At all times, I promise you, we will be taking our neighbors' desires for peaceful enjoyment of their properties into consideration and acting accordingly!

Regards,

Tom Mullen, President
Lake Winnipesaukee Sailing Association, Inc.

[fatlazyless]

Hello Tom....so's I got a question for you.....if I want to mail a fifty dollar check to help pay to build the new Winnipesaukee sailing school at Ellacoya....then where does it get mailed.....and to what should the check be made payable to?

[VtSteve]

I must say Tom, you've certainly made the case for you being a desirable neighbor. You've brought up points that show you're not only thinking about adverse consequences, but that you care about adjoining impacts.

I don;t think it's a stretch to say that the LWSA could be considered an asset to all if everyone joins in to properly fund it, and access is available and even complementary.

Is there any plausible way that boat launching and other services could be made available to the campers? This could be yet another source of revenue, not to mention sailing lessons and the like.

Just thinking out loud here. You've presented a good case.

[tntm_71we]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I must say Tom, you've certainly made the case for you being a desirable neighbor. You've brought up points that show you're not only thinking about adverse consequences, but that you care about adjoining impacts.

I don;t think it's a stretch to say that the LWSA could be considered an asset to all if everyone joins in to properly fund it, and access is available and even complementary.

Is there any plausible way that boat launching and other services could be made available to the campers? This could be yet another source of revenue, not to mention sailing lessons and the like.

Just thinking out loud here. You've presented a good case.

Hello VtSteve,

It's pretty simple -- treat your neighbors the way you'd like them to treat you! We will need a lot of help to get this complex built and that help will need to flow from a lot of people who don't sail, at least not yet.

With the permission of the State of New Hampshire's Parks & Recreation Division and with the involvement of the Marine Division of the Department of Public Safety, we fully intend to make boat launching available to the campers and to others who currently have the right to access the launching ramp at Ellacoya that the LWSA will be improving as part of its construction program.

All of our programs for children and adults will be open to public participation and we hope to make the phrase "Ready About" part of the vocabulary for hundreds of Granite Staters and visitors to the Lakes Region.

By the way, I neglected to tell FatLazyLess in my last response to his post about donations that when a donation is made of $25 or more after June 30th, the donor also gets a Membership in the LWSA for the balance of the current year and for all of the coming year as well.

Thanks for thinking out loud -- it's music to my ears!!!

Regards,

Tom Mullen, President
Lake Winnipesaukee Sailing Association, Inc.

[whalley1]

I wish someone would clear up some of the information on this thread.

For example isn't Ellacoya Park only 31 acres with the rest across the road
and listed as forestry by the State?

On the post dated 10-04-2010, 10:40 AM - the bath house is listed with a 12' dimension. I believe it is much bigger and will measure it next time I am up there unless someone already knows the real dimensions.

Any update on the wavefence design?

[fatlazyless]

Some photographs, including an aereal photo, would be real informative here. Have you seen the courtesy aereal photo made by Bill Hemmel of the Laconia Library at www.laconialibrary.org .... one good aereal photo taken on a sunny day can go a long way...

[whalley1]

I measured the current bath house and it measures 26' x 48' - This does not count the overhangs - 4 ft in opposite directions! I am amazed that Mr. Mullen never choose to correct this or some of the other incorrect information. This makes me very skeptical.

A NH taxpayer and LSP Club member.

[tntm_71we]

Hello Mr. Whalley,

Season's Greetings to you and your family!

I think you are saying to me that the size of the existing bath house adjacent to our proposed pavilion is larger than we have shown on the Site Plan. I take your word for that and I will make sure our team double checks the dimensions to make sure we have the existing building properly sized on the final plans. Please understand that the drawings to date are preliminary in nature and that far more precise field measurements will be completed so that the final plans are absolutely correct.

Thanks for bringing this matter to our consideration and I assure you we will have very accurate and complete measurements of all existing site conditions before moving forward.

You indicate that some other information I have provided is incorrect. Will you please make me aware of what information provided to date falls into the incorrect category and I will attempt to address any and all concerns forthwith. It is our intent to be accurate and complete with all of our disclosures in the interest of fully informing LSP as to our intentions at Ellacoya.

If I am not mistaken, your name is one of the names I have been given as being a member of a group at LSP looking into our project. As in the past, I am available to meet with you and others to make sure you are fully informed as to out intentions. Name the time and place and I will do my best to be available.

Sincerely,

Tom Mullen, President
Lake Winnipesaukee Sailing Center, Inc.

[NoBozo]

I'm just looking at Google Earth today of Ellacoya State Park as I got interested in this thread. I AM a Sailor.

In Newport, RI we have Sail Newport situated at Fort Adams which is a State Park. There is plenty of room at this location. Almost all the boats are "Dry Sailed".... ie: The boats are stored On Land.. On Trailers .... and launched when required. Other larger boats are on moorings. There is ROOM.

I see NO SUCH ROOM at Ellacoya. You need room for Car Parking AND Boat Parking.

I also see some very shallow water for quite a distance off shore at that site. I think someone mentioned this much earlier. If the prevailing wind is on shore..and the sailors are NOVICE...STUDENTS..getting a daggerboard boat ..such as a Laser, into deep enough water to sail OUT of the shallow water UPWIND is..at best frustrating...and at worst Futile...for a veteran OR a beginner.

I have no dog in this fight but this idea seems ...A REAL STRETCH. There is NO Space..... unless you TAKE OVER and Eliminate the RV Park. Just sayin...

I am a Sailor..(Offshore and Long Distance..30+ years) and I promote youth learning to sail. I think Ellacoya is not the place. NB

[Herburban]

I camp at Ellacoya every year for 12 days as do a lot of my friends. We do not want to loose our park for a sailing club..We pay close to $50 a night for a quiet beach and a place for our boat, not to park in a parking lot and a noisy beach. Ellacoya is one of the most profitable state parks in NH. And we all spend alot while we are here. We just heard about this last week while we were there and are totally against it. There is plenty of land for sale around the lake they can buy it for market price instead of getting a deal from the state for their own use.