Unsafe Boating - the real issue

[JohnNH]

After reading the entire posting in this chain, I think we can all agree that it’s obvious that a clear answer to the unsafe boating problem doesn't exist.

I have been thinking about ways to address the problem.

Let's discuss this one:

As we all know, there is a requirement that by a certain date, we all have to take the boaters safety course (and I agree that the on-line course is a joke). Once we have taken the course, we all receive this official looking card that provides registered proof that we are in compliance with the regulation. Some people actually think this document is a license.

In the event that you are not in compliance with the regulation, you MAY get a ticket and be forced to take the course + pay a fine. Many people will say "Big Deal", and continue boating.

If we all think about this, you might ask yourself when was the last time you’ve been stopped by Marine Patrol? Personally, I have been stopped three times in my entire boating life = 42 years of boating. The first time was to warn me that I had passed a marker on the wrong side and the officer wanted to tell me about the hazard; (this was on Ossipee Lake about 10 years ago). The second time was in Winter Harbor about 4 or 5 years ago and the officer asked me if he could inspect my boat – he did and everything was in order. The third time was on Winnisquam and the officer (part time summer help) told me I was speeding – I asked him if I had passed anyone unsafely and he said no; I had to remind him that I was not speeding since there was no speed limit in the main part of the lake and he agreed and went on his way – note; I was traveling about 55 mph.

My point here is that unless there is a sufficient penalty in a regulation, there is no reason for the irresponsible boaters to have any concern for the rules.

Potential Solution:

Any boat operator should be required to hold a boaters license and actually take a so-called road test. With an actual license requirement, boaters that break the rules get tickets under the same points system that is in place on the states highways. If you build up to many points, yes you lose your boating license, but is this enough? If the boating license is tied to your motor vehicle driver’s license and the points are applied to both, perhaps this would be sufficient cause for boaters to abide by regulations. I am not truly in favor of more laws, however, a law like this would have NO impact on safe boaters.

Last item for now:
Again, in my opinion: The suggested implementation of controlled traffic patterns will only move the problem to another area of the lake and pass the problems off to others.

John/NH

[PROPELLER]

Some interesting ideas John. One thing I am not sure it would work or how it would work, tieing/tying in ones boaters license to their drivers license for boaters with out of state licenses. You have to get Registry of Motor vehicle depts from other states to comply, many will for drivers licenses but I suspect they would not extend that to NH boating licenses. Maybe someday if all states were on board with this idea.

However, the boaters licence & affecting the privilege to operate on NH waters when violations are commited is an interesting idea. Maybe the fee for the licence could hire additional personnel because with such a large undertaking additional officers for enforcement will be needed & additional personnel will be needed for the examinations.

[Tyler]

John, as usual some good thoughts on your part. One simple question, how do you propose your and others suggestions be implemented? Allot of discussion IMO with no implementation plan.

[upthesaukee]

Town of Alton has come up with a radical plan to control boat traffic in Alton bay and will be a warrant article at this year's town meeting. All traffic in the bay must be headed out the bay....and we'll let Wolfeboro worry about it!!!

[JohnNH]

Your post reminds me of a story that made the news a few years ago in Maine.
When the expansion of I-95 from the tolls North to Portland was in the planning stages and older downeaster gentleman was quoted in the news article:

He said:
I-95 is already 4 lanes. Lets save the tax money and make the road 1 lane Northbound and 3 lanes Southbound.

Sounds like your post ???

Note, I am not suggesting your an older downeaster gentleman.

John/NH

[upthesaukee]

Actually, it is a paraphrase of an anonymous comic (anonymous 'cause I am getting to the point where I don't remember who said what lo those many years ago...) who in the course of his act was complaining about the traffic in NYC. He said it was simple...make all the streets one way southbound and let Jersey worry about it...

So you caught me with an unoriginal thought...I hang my head in shame...

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

"...I'd like to think I've obeyed the law, but..." AND "What you say could be valid if the problems on the lake were reserved to the large go fast boaters..." >>SNIP<<

Depends on what you consider "the problems".

Every year for the last three years, there has been at least one major crash involving GFBL boats. (Go Fast Be Loud.

A 38-foot Lightning lost control, caught his own swim-platform, and flipped. It tore off his swim platform and tossed six thrill-seekers into Winnipesaukee. Later, another GFBL did the same thing.

Caught his swim platform? What boats on the lake can even attempt that?

That "Fountain in the trees?". That boat had 2 hours on it, and was bought with the insurance proceeds from his first boat -- which he also destroyed.

In only those 3 years, about 20 Winnipesaukee boaters have gotten thrown out, badly shaken up, or sued -- and one was crushed to death -- all due to GFBL Big Boats. GFBL boaters just say, "nobody drowned". Of the 110,000 other boats sharing New Hampshire's waters none get these kinds of headlines.

And it's going to happen again.

There should be demonstrable skills-testing at their highest speed.

But that won't happen.

A sliding scale of enhanced fees, enhanced written-testing for boats over 24 feet, and enhanced numbers -- all of which can use existing New Hampshire infrastructure -- will help turn this weekend madness around.

I've reviewed all 58 of BoaterEd's forum pages, and all of BoatUS forum pages. The bottom line among America's most active year-around boaters? One word:

Enforcement.

Not written tests, not licenses, not twin-50s, not speed limits, not counter-clockwise circulation, not Internet-testing, not skills-testing:

Enforcement.

What is the Marine Patrol's litany?

"We don't have the funds".

Well, enhance the existing penny-ante fee-schedule for the amount of lake that a boat actively uses (LxWxHP, or acres/second), "Learn" the GFBL Big Boaters some sense through aggressively-written tests, and enlarge the numbers.

It was here a minute ago...Where's my #%€¥þleeping wand?!?!?

[frank m.]

Dave Barrett, Director of Safety Services and head of the Marine Patrol, testified in front of the House RR&D committee last month that there has not been a single speed-related incident on the lake in several years, that there is no speed that is unsafe for the lake no matter how fast, and that there is no correlation between high speed and safety in a marine environment.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by frank m.

Dave Barrett, Director of Safety Services and head of the Marine Patrol, testified in front of the House RR&D committee last month that there has not been a single speed-related incident on the lake in several years, that there is no speed that is unsafe for the lake no matter how fast, and that there is no correlation between high speed and safety in a marine environment.

I would like to see the direct quote becasue that is simply untrue. When the GOFAST boats overturn in the process of taking a highpeed turn I would say that is a result of speed. Gimmee a break

... no speed that is unsafe for the lake no matter how fast

That does not make any sense at all.

[frank m.]

Originally Posted by JDeere

that is simply untrue...That does not make any sense at all.

I agree with you, but I am just repeating what he said at the hearing.
I recall at least two cases just last year alone where boats travelling at very high speeds flipped over while out all alone(one on the Broads at over 90 and one in Alton at over 70), yet I guess those were not "speed related" by his standards. There might be a recording of the RR&D hearing available somewhere...does anybody know?
You may recall that Director Barrett also testified a couple of years ago that a proposed no-wake zone for Center Harbor, like the one in Meredith Bay, would actually impair safety rather than improve it, because the no-wake markers would create safety hazards while there was no evidence that headway travel was any safer.
I'm just the messenger.

[upthesaukee]

As memory serves me right, both of those incidents involved the boat being put through some radical or severe or tight turns, and I suppose that if that was the case, the proximate cause was more the turning (what would possibly be considered by some as a reckless operation...my thought actually) as opposed to the speed itself being the cause. Speed may then be considered a "contributing factor". I guess we would have to see the "accident report" to see how it was written up to see where Director Barrett gets his information.

I would also question the "any speed is safe" point of view. I can certainly drive a car around NHIS, and would be comfortable driving a properly equipped car at a fairly high rate of speed. I would also believe that if I tried to drive that car at a speed that the NASCAR drivers do, I would probably be unsafe. Similarly, those who feel that they could run at the speeds of a "Miss Budweiser" probably would lack the training to safely handle those speeds. I hope that common sense will prevail for those with the boats capable of very high rates of speed and we won't have our "first" accident due to speed.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by frank m.

I'm just the messenger.

Did not mean to kill the messenger.

I saw a GOFAST boat 2 years ago that sank after attempting a high speed turn. The boat and driver would have done fine at a slower speed but the speed sure was a factor.



I really wish people could get on the same page and protect the resource and peoples safety so that everyone can enjoy.

[frank m.]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I really wish people could get on the same page and protect the resource and peoples safety so that everyone can enjoy.

That's not going to happen as long as we have a DoS that feels the way it does about speeding. While ALL other law enforcement agencies (land and marine) subscribe to the theory that "speed kills", the MP clearly holds that speed is irrelevant to safety, and actively lobbies on the side of speeding at every opportunity. against that obstacle, why would anything ever change?

[codeman671]

Most of the serious accidents (barrell-roll flips) have been due to people lacking the knowledge on how to properly handle a step-hull design in a performance boat. Or just plan carelessness...One of the incidents involved the owner of Silver Sands on a test ride with a potential customer in a fountain. This information came from the owner of another major dealer on the lake, a friend of his. Of all the people that should know how to handle one I would assume that the dealer should. Last year I also saw numerous people doing watersports (tubing/skiing/wakeboarding) in major channels/thruways. Weekend warriors in the middle of the buoys in Alton Bay, between Sleepers and the sand bar, etc. Total disregard for the safety of their passengers, people being towed behind the boat and others using the lake. Pick a cove! A quiet spot! Why in the middle of the damn lake???

[ApS]

I read today that two insurance companies, Blackadar and St. Louis, are no longer insuring "performance boats". (At $5000 per year, I might add).

What happens to Winnipesaukee when these boats are in the hands of those who can "afford" no insurance?

But back to enhanced testing/licensure of oversized and GFBL boats.

One test question comes to mind:

What do you do when one of your GFBL switches "goes soft"?

1) Set the other side to match and continue.
2) Stop, remove the switch, and crimp the wires together when needed.
3) Return to your home port at reduced speed.
4) Live with it -- it's a weekend anyway -- no repair shop is open.

[codeman671]

Blackadar will not insure any boat that traves over 50mph no matter what it is. I have a 32' twin engine bowrider/cruiser that according the the mfg is good for 58mph, even though it is really a family boat they would not touch it. BoatUS was by far the best deal and did not really care.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by JohnNH

In the event that you are not in compliance with the regulation, you MAY get a ticket and be forced to take the course + pay a fine. Many people will say "Big Deal", and continue boating. {snip} My point here is that unless there is a sufficient penalty in a regulation, there is no reason for the irresponsible boaters to have any concern for the rules.

Potential Solution:

Any boat operator should be required to hold a boaters license and actually take a so-called road test. With an actual license requirement, boaters that break the rules get tickets under the same points system that is in place on the states highways. If you build up to many points, yes you lose your boating license, but is this enough? If the boating license is tied to your motor vehicle driver’s license and the points are applied to both, perhaps this would be sufficient cause for boaters to abide by regulations. I am not truly in favor of more laws, however, a law like this would have NO impact on safe boaters.

John/NH

I don't disagree with the concept of a license, which could be revoked after multiple infractions as is done in the auto world. Ditto on the "road test". I would add that increasing the fines for repeated infractions should also be done. Like Propeller I'm not sure how practical it would be link boating and auto "points".