Moultonborough solar farm

fatlazyless · 12-26-2017, 05:59 AM

http://www.unionleader.com/NH-Co-op-...r-array-online Union Leader, Dec 25, 'NH Co-op Close to Bringing State's Largest Solar Array Online'

Largest solar setup in the state due to be working by year's end.

Just wondering if the NH Electric Co-op has to pay a Moultonborough property tax for this and how much? If in excess of $10,000/yr, does the new federal tax rule apply starting next year, in 2018, and wouldn't that lower the assessed value?

FlyingScot · 12-26-2017, 10:54 AM

A fine start! We are adding solar panels to our Mass roof. Quotes from installers are just coming in now, and the economics are great. System will pay for itself in 7 years or so and the investment generates an annual return of over 20%.

Meredith Resident · 12-26-2017, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

A fine start! We are adding solar panels to our Mass roof. Quotes from installers are just coming in now, and the economics are great. System will pay for itself in 7 years or so and the investment generates an annual return of over 20%.

LED lighting has a much better payback (1-2 years.)

SAB1 · 12-26-2017, 02:59 PM

Hazadous waste. Can only imagine what the removal cost will be in ten years. Not as "Green" as they want you to believe.

FlyingScot · 12-26-2017, 04:11 PM

MR--Absolutely! Both LEDs and solar are great. I did LEDs earlier this year, but even with that savings the panels will still have an excellent return

SAMIAM · 12-27-2017, 11:32 AM

Wondering how effective solar can be up north in the winter when the sun is low in the sky and there are long periods without sunshine.
The Babcock Ranch in Florida has a 440 acre solar field that produces 74 megawatts of power. Huge system that operates all year at the same rate.

FlyingScot · 12-27-2017, 01:19 PM

Solar is definitely more effective in the South and in the Summer, but that is not quite the point. Solar still generates plenty of power when installed in NH, and that power will get you an excellent financial return at very low risk. Basically, you sell your excess solar power to the grid in the Summer, and buy traditional power to supplement your needs in the Winter, with all the math and money handled by your electricity supplier.

At least in Mass in was easy to get quotes from excellent experienced installers after a simple Google search. NHEC would probably be very helpful too.

thinkxingu · 12-27-2017, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

Solar is definitely more effective in the South and in the Summer, but that is not quite the point. Solar still generates plenty of power when installed in NH, and that power will get you an excellent financial return at very low risk. Basically, you sell your excess solar power to the grid in the Summer, and buy traditional power to supplement your needs in the Winter, with all the math and money handled by your electricity supplier.

At least in Mass in was easy to get quotes from excellent experienced installers after a simple Google search. NHEC would probably be very helpful too.

Peter, did you look into having storage (batteries) installed? We have an all-electric home, so it'd be sweet to get completely off the grid, but I'll not quite sure solar (at least in NH) is there yet.

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FlyingScot · 12-27-2017, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Peter, did you look into having storage (batteries) installed? We have an all-electric home, so it'd be sweet to get completely off the grid, but I'll not quite sure solar (at least in NH) is there yet.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Yes--I looked at batteries, but I decided that with net metering I did not need them. With net metering, the grid basically acts as your battery--during periods when you generate more than you use, the excess power is sent to other homes and your electric meter spins backwards, reducing your electric bill. At night, your electricity is supplied by fossil fuel. Adding a battery keeps all the juice at your house for nighttime use, but the grid is paying you a pretty good rate for the electricity, so the battery does not pay for itself the way the panels do.

One great advantage of the batteries is backup power for outages.

There are some limits on net metering that a local installer can provide. For those in Mass--the net metering deal is going to become less attractive for systems installed after June, and it takes a couple of months to get the system done. So now is a good time to call.

thinkxingu · 12-27-2017, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterG

Yes--I looked at batteries, but I decided that with net metering I did not need them. With net metering, the grid basically acts as your battery--during periods when you generate more than you use, the excess power is sent to other homes and your electric meter spins backwards, reducing your electric bill. At night, your electricity is supplied by fossil fuel. Adding a battery keeps all the juice at your house for nighttime use, but the grid is paying you a pretty good rate for the electricity, so the battery does not pay for itself the way the panels do.

One great advantage of the batteries is backup power for outages.

There are some limits on net metering that a local installer can provide. For those in Mass--the net metering deal is going to become less attractive for systems installed after June, and it takes a couple of months to get the system done. So now is a good time to call.

Thanks for the info!

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

NH.Solar · 12-28-2017, 10:11 AM

Meredith Resident makes a good point in that LED lighting has a shorter payback and is a logical first step, and air sourced heat pumps (aka mini-splits)run a close second. A solar system however will generally have a 40+ year life span with minimal maintenance required and will outlive both. After the ~8 year payback period for a solar system has been satisfied (the money saved in utility billings offsets the net cost of the system) the power coming from the solar array will be cost totally and pollution free.
Samiam, there is a newish type of panel available that helps to minimize the winter shortcoming, bifacials. Bifacial modules are able to gather power both from the front and rear of the panel and work GREAT in this area when ground mounted. The snow on the ground in winter makes an excellent reflector and the module will see roughly a 25% gain in production from the rear of the panel. I tested one of these last year on a pond and was blown away by how much power they produced! There is a page on my website dedicated to this test. We have just this past week completed a 32 panel ground mounted bifacial array in Meredith that will be powering an electrically heated home. I'll be very excitedly monitoring this system daily over the next few months and expect dramatic results. One unique advantage is that the array should be able to produce some power from the backside even when the topside is still covered in snow.
Thinkxingu and PeterG, the battery technology is available now and works very well, but really only makes financial sense when a client has a need for both self consumption and backup power. We installed a system in Sandwich in late summer that is a perfect example of this. The client's home is on a long dead end road and it isn't unusual for them to experience multiple day power outages. The self consumption aspect did help to keep the payback period somewhat reasonable, but still the cost of the 9.8 kWh LG battery and peripheral components nearly doubled it. The backup aspect hoiwever has already rewarded my clients, they lost grid power for 3 days in the first of October storm, but their solar array and battery gave them enough 24 hour power to keep all of their essential loads running

. For a really great short video explanation on how solar/backup works go here. The price of solar storage systems is beginning to really tumble as more companies enter the fray and I wouldn't be surprised to see the cost at half of what it is now within ten years.
PeterG's point on net meter crediting is correct for New Hampshire too, you will receive a credit of roughly 75 cents on the dollar for excess solar power exported back into grid. In effect the grid becomes your battery and the excess power generated in the summer sun will be consumed by your home in the winter months. One of the key elements to a well designed solar system is to make it just large enough to offset the clients annual consumption and take maximum advantage of net metering.

Descant · 12-28-2017, 02:49 PM

2 questions.

What's the cost comparison for battery back up vs a generator. Rephrased, If I already have a standby generator, is there any incentive for batteries?

Second, it seems to me net-metering is based on power going back into the grid at a retail price (meter running backward). Since the NHEC, for example, is producing or buying power at a cost lower than what they pay you, doesn't this artificially inflate the cost for everybody? We ran into this some years ago when PSNH was "forced" to buy water power generation. There were people going around getting water flow rights and selling to PSNH with the threat that they might generate power that PSNH had to buy. I'd guess the Co-op and Unitil were in the same boat.

FlyingScot · 12-28-2017, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

2 questions.

What's the cost comparison for battery back up vs a generator. Rephrased, If I already have a standby generator, is there any incentive for batteries?

Second, it seems to me net-metering is based on power going back into the grid at a retail price (meter running backward). Since the NHEC, for example, is producing or buying power at a cost lower than what they pay you, doesn't this artificially inflate the cost for everybody? We ran into this some years ago when PSNH was "forced" to buy water power generation. There were people going around getting water flow rights and selling to PSNH with the threat that they might generate power that PSNH had to buy. I'd guess the Co-op and Unitil were in the same boat.

Great questions--I leave the first one to NH.Solar.

The second question gets at a bunch of complicated economics, but I would say on balance is does not unfairly cost fellow rate payers. NHEC is paying you only 75% of the retail price, so they are getting compensated for their grid and other support. Plus there are a bunch of long term benefits to solar compared to fossil fuels--most significantly from an economic perspective, you are locking in your cost of electricity for 20 years, so even after ExxonMobil, OPEC and others figure out how to increase prices again, you're protected. This will help NHEC ratepayers as well--more people buying solar will mean fewer people buying oil, and this will exert downward price pressure on fossil fuel.

Descant · 12-28-2017, 04:28 PM

Thanks. I was unaware of the 75% purchase price. I just thought of the meter running backward, or not moving at all.

Outdoorsman · 12-28-2017, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

Thanks. I was unaware of the 75% purchase price. I just thought of the meter running backward, or not moving at all.

Plus he is quoting NHEC which gets the bulk of their income from "membership" fees rather than "useage".

SAMIAM · 12-29-2017, 09:00 AM

Not ready for solar conversion yet...but in Florida I have a Solar Max 3300 Solar generator.
It will run a full size fridges and a few other smaller appliances all day and overnight on the battery pack. Recharges in 4 or 5 hours with direct sun.
When power is out you can pretty much live of this generator by switching from microwave/coffee maker, hair dryer or whatever is needed.
Of course there is no use of a washer/dryer and any of the big appliances but still very handy

12-26-2017, 05:59 AM	#1
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,251 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 314 Thanked 1,120 Times in 827 Posts	Moultonborough solar farm http://www.unionleader.com/NH-Co-op-...r-array-online Union Leader, Dec 25, 'NH Co-op Close to Bringing State's Largest Solar Array Online' Largest solar setup in the state due to be working by year's end. Just wondering if the NH Electric Co-op has to pay a Moultonborough property tax for this and how much? If in excess of $10,000/yr, does the new federal tax rule apply starting next year, in 2018, and wouldn't that lower the assessed value? __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

12-26-2017, 10:54 AM	#2
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,620 Thanks: 1,458 Thanked 1,088 Times in 679 Posts	Better than the stock market A fine start! We are adding solar panels to our Mass roof. Quotes from installers are just coming in now, and the economics are great. System will pay for itself in 7 years or so and the investment generates an annual return of over 20%.

12-28-2017, 10:11 AM	#11
NH.Solar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton Posts: 248 Thanks: 48 Thanked 142 Times in 79 Posts	Meredith Resident makes a good point in that LED lighting has a shorter payback and is a logical first step, and air sourced heat pumps (aka mini-splits)run a close second. A solar system however will generally have a 40+ year life span with minimal maintenance required and will outlive both. After the ~8 year payback period for a solar system has been satisfied (the money saved in utility billings offsets the net cost of the system) the power coming from the solar array will be cost totally and pollution free. Samiam, there is a newish type of panel available that helps to minimize the winter shortcoming, bifacials. Bifacial modules are able to gather power both from the front and rear of the panel and work GREAT in this area when ground mounted. The snow on the ground in winter makes an excellent reflector and the module will see roughly a 25% gain in production from the rear of the panel. I tested one of these last year on a pond and was blown away by how much power they produced! There is a page on my website dedicated to this test. We have just this past week completed a 32 panel ground mounted bifacial array in Meredith that will be powering an electrically heated home. I'll be very excitedly monitoring this system daily over the next few months and expect dramatic results. One unique advantage is that the array should be able to produce some power from the backside even when the topside is still covered in snow. Thinkxingu and PeterG, the battery technology is available now and works very well, but really only makes financial sense when a client has a need for both self consumption and backup power. We installed a system in Sandwich in late summer that is a perfect example of this. The client's home is on a long dead end road and it isn't unusual for them to experience multiple day power outages. The self consumption aspect did help to keep the payback period somewhat reasonable, but still the cost of the 9.8 kWh LG battery and peripheral components nearly doubled it. The backup aspect hoiwever has already rewarded my clients, they lost grid power for 3 days in the first of October storm, but their solar array and battery gave them enough 24 hour power to keep all of their essential loads running . For a really great short video explanation on how solar/backup works go here. The price of solar storage systems is beginning to really tumble as more companies enter the fray and I wouldn't be surprised to see the cost at half of what it is now within ten years. PeterG's point on net meter crediting is correct for New Hampshire too, you will receive a credit of roughly 75 cents on the dollar for excess solar power exported back into grid. In effect the grid becomes your battery and the excess power generated in the summer sun will be consumed by your home in the winter months. One of the key elements to a well designed solar system is to make it just large enough to offset the clients annual consumption and take maximum advantage of net metering. __________________ Peter NH Solar

12-26-2017, 02:59 PM	#4
SAB1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Tuftonboro Posts: 1,282 Thanks: 201 Thanked 343 Times in 248 Posts	Hazadous waste. Can only imagine what the removal cost will be in ten years. Not as "Green" as they want you to believe.

12-26-2017, 04:11 PM	#5
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,620 Thanks: 1,458 Thanked 1,088 Times in 679 Posts	MR--Absolutely! Both LEDs and solar are great. I did LEDs earlier this year, but even with that savings the panels will still have an excellent return

12-27-2017, 11:32 AM	#6
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,961 Thanks: 352 Thanked 1,732 Times in 614 Posts	Wondering how effective solar can be up north in the winter when the sun is low in the sky and there are long periods without sunshine. The Babcock Ranch in Florida has a 440 acre solar field that produces 74 megawatts of power. Huge system that operates all year at the same rate.

12-27-2017, 01:19 PM	#7
FlyingScot Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA Posts: 2,620 Thanks: 1,458 Thanked 1,088 Times in 679 Posts	Solar is definitely more effective in the South and in the Summer, but that is not quite the point. Solar still generates plenty of power when installed in NH, and that power will get you an excellent financial return at very low risk. Basically, you sell your excess solar power to the grid in the Summer, and buy traditional power to supplement your needs in the Winter, with all the math and money handled by your electricity supplier. At least in Mass in was easy to get quotes from excellent experienced installers after a simple Google search. NHEC would probably be very helpful too.

12-28-2017, 02:49 PM	#12
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,656 Thanks: 1,448 Thanked 1,733 Times in 1,127 Posts	2 questions. What's the cost comparison for battery back up vs a generator. Rephrased, If I already have a standby generator, is there any incentive for batteries? Second, it seems to me net-metering is based on power going back into the grid at a retail price (meter running backward). Since the NHEC, for example, is producing or buying power at a cost lower than what they pay you, doesn't this artificially inflate the cost for everybody? We ran into this some years ago when PSNH was "forced" to buy water power generation. There were people going around getting water flow rights and selling to PSNH with the threat that they might generate power that PSNH had to buy. I'd guess the Co-op and Unitil were in the same boat.

12-28-2017, 04:28 PM	#14
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,656 Thanks: 1,448 Thanked 1,733 Times in 1,127 Posts	Thanks. I was unaware of the 75% purchase price. I just thought of the meter running backward, or not moving at all.

12-29-2017, 09:00 AM	#16
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,961 Thanks: 352 Thanked 1,732 Times in 614 Posts	Not ready for solar conversion yet...but in Florida I have a Solar Max 3300 Solar generator. It will run a full size fridges and a few other smaller appliances all day and overnight on the battery pack. Recharges in 4 or 5 hours with direct sun. When power is out you can pretty much live of this generator by switching from microwave/coffee maker, hair dryer or whatever is needed. Of course there is no use of a washer/dryer and any of the big appliances but still very handy