Kayak Safety Flags

[Seaplane Pilot]

I think it's high time that Kayakers on Winnipesaukee be required to have a safety flag on board. Here's a good one I found on line:

http://www.touringkayaks.com/gear.htm

"Possibly the most important piece of equipment beyond your pfd and paddle." Kayaks and canoes have an extremely low profile – typically 2 ft or less above water - making them hard to be seen in even the best water conditions. This is clearly a major safety problem for everyone on the water, including operators of powerboats, sailboats, fisherman, sea planes, and even other kayaks and canoes.

Kayakers should carry at least some of the burden of safety.

I'm going to contact my state rep and have them submit a bill right away.

[NoBozo]

SP I think it makes perfect Common Sense for a kayaker ...or anyone else on the water to protect themselves in anyway they see fit. The problem I have is Making it a LAW. The key here is common sense. The kayaker...and Anyone Else out there has to take some responsibility for their OWN saftey..rather than leave it to Nanny to hold their hand when the going gets rough.

For example, as you know there is NO Requirement for you to carrry a radio in a small plane. Some of the older planes don't have an electrical system to support one. However, every small plane pilot I've met has at least a handheld radio in the cockpit...even though he is NOT Mandated to do so. It's just the Prudent thing to do. Nb

[upthesaukee]

When I came into Alton Bay last week heading to Parker's, we were just inside Sandy Point and saw two kayakers near the bandstand. The reason I saw them from just inside Sandy Point was the fact both Kayaks had orange pennants on about a 4 ft pole. As we passed each other by the bandstand, I thanked them for having and using the flags, and told them how far away I was when I noticed the flags. I would guess he appreciated the info.

[Lucky1]

One of the reasons I use an orange kayak is to try to be seen. Most of the time I try to stay near to the shore whenever possible.
I may investigate a flag. However, I assume that if a boater hits a swimmer, or a kayaker or sailor or sailboat etc, there will be a legal process. IT IS THE DUTY OF THE BOATER TO MAKE SURE HE IS NOT TOO NEAR AND GOING TOO FAST TO SAILORS, KAYAKERS, SWIMMERS ETC. It is not open season on others in the water so that any boater can do as he or she wishes. No headway speed within so many feet or whatever the different rules are.
Actually, would someone happen to know the rules for boaters regarding other persons and boats etc in the water?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

One of the reasons I use an orange kayak is to try to be seen. Most of the time I try to stay near to the shore whenever possible.
I may investigate a flag. However, I assume that if a boater hits a swimmer, or a kayaker or sailor or sailboat etc, there will be a legal process. IT IS THE DUTY OF THE BOATER TO MAKE SURE HE IS NOT TOO NEAR AND GOING TOO FAST TO SAILORS, KAYAKERS, SWIMMERS ETC. It is not open season on others in the water so that any boater can do as he or she wishes. No headway speed within so many feet or whatever the different rules are.
Actually, would someone happen to know the rules for boaters regarding other persons and boats etc in the water?

I don't find it all that hard to spot kayaks and canoes. Less visible than a boat ... sure, but certainly visible at 1000' or more, assuming the person at the wheel is paying attention. I find that the kayak color helps but only a little. More visible is the persons body and head and especially the blades. Flashy blades, moving*, are very easy to see. If kayakers wore blaze orange (or equivalent) PFDs that would (IMO) be sufficient for all ... except Capt B.


*think of a cyclist with reflectors in the pedals at night. No doubt what they are when you see them. So does anyone make LED paddles for night-time kayaking ???

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

One of the reasons I use an orange kayak is to try to be seen. Most of the time I try to stay near to the shore whenever possible.
I may investigate a flag. However, I assume that if a boater hits a swimmer, or a kayaker or sailor or sailboat etc, there will be a legal process. IT IS THE DUTY OF THE BOATER TO MAKE SURE HE IS NOT TOO NEAR AND GOING TOO FAST TO SAILORS, KAYAKERS, SWIMMERS ETC. It is not open season on others in the water so that any boater can do as he or she wishes. No headway speed within so many feet or whatever the different rules are.
Actually, would someone happen to know the rules for boaters regarding other persons and boats etc in the water?

This comment is a very good reason why all boaters including Kayakers, Rowboaters and canoeist should need to take a boaters education class.

Power boaters do need watch out and give way for vessels with limited maneuverability (like a kayak). However, anyone sharing the water needs to take responsibility for their actions. Don’t assume you have the right of way. A power boater running down a kayaker will most likely be legally found at fault, but that would NOT mean much if there were a fatality involved.

We absolutely can get along, but we all need to take responsibility for ourselves our vessels and everyone else sharing the water.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

When I came into Alton Bay last week heading to Parker's, we were just inside Sandy Point and saw two kayakers near the bandstand. The reason I saw them from just inside Sandy Point was the fact both Kayaks had orange pennants on about a 4 ft pole. As we passed each other by the bandstand, I thanked them for having and using the flags, and told them how far away I was when I noticed the flags. I would guess he appreciated the info.

It's funny but I saw them also. I was in the car traveling up 11 and mentioned to RG how visible they were out in the bay. I agree with Mee-N-Mac about the various options that kayakers have to make themselves visible. A couple orange blades go a long way to getting noticed.

[OCDACTIVE]

How about registration for kayaks, canoes, paddle boats etc? It takes just as much effort for the Marine Patrol to rescue and they have as many rights as power / sail boaters when on the lake... Only seems right, provided it doesn't get moved into the general fund to close the budget gap.. Just IMO.

[robmac]

I agree all boats power,sail and paddle should all be held to the same safety and registration requirements. There is no discount in cost to help or save anyone out on the water as safety is paramount. We all need to participate in doing our best to insure we and our families are safe on the waterways of NH. Asking all to pay a fair share is not only fair but responsible. IMHO

[ApS]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

How about registration for kayaks, canoes, paddle boats etc...provided it doesn't get moved into the general fund to close the budget gap.

1) Who thinks that possibility could ever happen?

2) This year, I have just one opinion on this proposal.

ETA:
August 14th, I saw a boat towing a tube with the red flag flying directly in front of the helm. Why he thought he needed it is unknown, as the bright neon-green tube was taller than the boat that was towing it!

61 posts in this thread...

[stingray60]

We once encountered a group of 6 kayakers who stopped for lunch at Ames Farm as they were touring the Big Lake. Moultonboro to Gilford to Wolfboro was their plan. All had dark colored kayaks. When I looked out at the lake I saw "victory at sea," whitecaps, windy, and turbulent. Didn't seem like a good plan to me but it's not my trip.

Long after the kayakers had left, my son, son-in-law, and I decided to take a short boat ride aboard a 22 foot walkaround cuddy with a large outboard. Good boat; seaworthy; know how to handle it. Everyone wearing a PFD. It wasn't bad inside the point but it got pretty rough exposed in the bay, so I decided to cut past Smith Point, circle around Sleepers and head back to the barn.

As I was making the port turn between Sleepers and Rattlesnake we crested a large wave into a deep trough. Guess who was there? That's right: six invisible kayakers less than two boat lengths in front of me as I'm plowing down the backside, sterns to my bow. I cut hard to starboard, hit the throttle and missed 'em by not very much. Deer in the leadlights look times six.

From that moment on I am convinced flags should be required on tiny craft in big water. A 1,000 feet visibility? Couldn't see them from 50 feet on a clear, sunny day. (Wonder if the six have any clue how lucky they are to be alive today?) Come to think of it, I don't think a 4 foot flag is tall enough for Winni.

Make no mistake about this post. Canoes and kayaks and other tiny craft have as much right to the lake as anyone. I just don't want to make your acquaintance by accident. An ounce of prevention.......

Kudos to Seaplane Pilot for bringing up a topic that's bothered me ever since it happened. Happy boating everybody.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I think it's high time that Kayakers on Winnipesaukee be required to have a safety flag on board. Here's a good one I found on line:

http://www.touringkayaks.com/gear.htm

"Possibly the most important piece of equipment beyond your pfd and paddle." Kayaks and canoes have an extremely low profile – typically 2 ft or less above water - making them hard to be seen in even the best water conditions. This is clearly a major safety problem for everyone on the water, including operators of powerboats, sailboats, fisherman, sea planes, and even other kayaks and canoes.

Kayakers should carry at least some of the burden of safety.

I'm going to contact my state rep and have them submit a bill right away.

Seaplane Pilot,
Thanks
Just ordered one. Already have orange Kayak, but Stingray60's encounter in the waves gave me pause as RG loves to go out in the big waves.

[Slickcraft]

As has been noted the flash of kayak blades is an attention getter. Our visual recognition is keyed to movement and/or changes in intensity or color. The next time you spot a kayak you will probably notice the paddles flash.

Blade color can make a difference however even plain old wood blades flash pretty good when wet and moving. No doubt one of the fluorescent safety colors would be better.

One recent morning heading in from Welch the flash kayak blades got my attention. I then noted the bright color kayak. After getting quite a bit closer I then saw that there was an orange flag on a pole. The flag displayed little movement and was fixed in color and intensity. Even after seeing the boat and the flag, the flashing blades were more prominent.

[Lucky1]

On the lakes in NH I believe that rowboats, kayaks, canoes, sailboats etc have the right of way? Be on the lookout for them! Can't we all just get along? Watch out for swimmers etc.

[Belmont Resident]

This subject has been talked about a lot and in the end nothing ever changes.
The point about almost hitting the six should hit home.
Why does it take someone getting killed to make people realize that no matter who has or had the right of way if you get killed because you simply couldn’t be seen it’s no ones fault but your own.

[jrc]

I never thought kayak visibilty was that big of an issue (except at night) until I read stingray's story. Now I'm thinking about getting that flag.

Usually, I'm a fair weather kayaker, just playing around while anchored out. But Sunday I did get stuck out in the pop-up rain that hit Gilford. The wind picked up for few minutes and there were some good size waves. It was all over in five minutes (except the rain) but it could have been worse. A little extra visibility couldn't hurt. I'm also thinking some bright tape for the paddle blades might help.

[topwater]

I totally agree and have always agreed, Kayakers-canoeist-and rowboats should ALL have to pay to use lakes in this state. I also agree that ALL kayakers should have to have a ORANGE FLAG to be more obvious to all, and to make things SAFER FOR ALL. Its not to penalize them, its a SAFTEY ISSUE.
Someone on here must know WHO? and HOW? Do we start a petition? Do we contact our State Rep? What is the proper procedure to get a BILL started to get the state to vote on? We have to start somewhere!
Someone on here must know. Lets all stop talking about it, and start doing something about it!

[ITD]

All I can say is the politicians, big government jerks have really won when citizens start cheering and demanding new taxes on other citizens.

[chipj29]

I boat a lot on the Merrimack River. There are dozens of kayaks/canoes out there everytime I am out. They generally hug the shore, but they do go out into the middle parts of the river at times. You have to be on the constant lookout for them up ahead.

When going up or down river, one tends to get "tunnel vision". You look around you, but don't have to worry about anything coming up behind you or from the side. So you really watch straight ahead. Once in a while, you get a bit of a scare when you notice that kayak that just up ahead is not so close to shore.

When boating in late afternoon, the sun goes down upriver. That means when heading upriver, the sun is right in your eyes, and the glare off the water is very strong. It is very hard to see anything, let alone a kayak of any color. You have to be real careful.

My point is that sometimes it is extremely difficult to see kayaks (or other low to the water boats) at any time of day. Any increased visibility (ie: safety flag or shiny paddle) is a bonus. I am not suggesting that a law should be passed that requires kayaks to have a safety flag. I am however suggesting that it is a VERY good idea in the name of safety and personal responsibility.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by topwater

I also agree that ALL kayakers should have to have a ORANGE FLAG to be more obvious to all, and to make things SAFER FOR ALL. Its not to penalize them, its a SAFETY ISSUE.

There are many kayakers that LOVE Nature and who gain great pleasure Getting Close to it. ... ie. sneaking up on it. With big ORANGE flags flying, not only will the boaters SEE them...but Nature will SEE them as well... ie. the Loons, Moose, Bears, and even the totally hated and maligned Geese and Ducks...

SO: The Unintended Consequences of the big orange flag will be that NATURE will be long gone by the time you paddle your butt over to where they WERE.

Another thought: I wonder if a Bull Moose would be inclined to CHARGE at the unarmed kayaker flying a fluttering Orange flag.... like a Bull charging the Red Cape. NB

[Woodsy]

I advocated flags on kayaks along time ago..... but after giving it some thought.... I dont think a law mandating a flag is necessary. It does not help with your rollover recovery in a kayak....

We need to take a cue from the hunters & sportsmen and mandate brightly colored (safety orange or yellow) lifevests to be worn at all times.... this increases thier visibilty as well as thier safety... more people drown in canoe & kayak accidents than anything else...

Canoes, Kayaks & small sailboats should also be required to pay a $10 annual access fee (sticker affixed to bow) for the privilege of using our lakes & rivers... We all have to share the burdens of safety and law enforcement...

Woodsy

[topwater]

Another thought: I wonder if a Bull Moose would be inclined to CHARGE at the unarmed kayaker flying a fluttering Orange flag.... like a Bull charging the Red Cape. NB

I blew coffee out of my nose when I read such a foolish comment! I hope that was a shot of humor, because if it wasn't, you DON'T know much about nature. So please don't use that nature agrument... Moose charging a orange flag, LMAO. just plain foolish what some people will say. Yes, I have been hunting for 40 years, seen lots of moose, and after wearing my orange vest, I am still around to tell my woes.

[SIKSUKR]

Interesting that SP started this thread as I was on Winni Friday and my GF and I were commenting on how hard it was to spot 2 kayaks that were in the middle of the Broads. We were on my PWC and only traveling at 20 mph. I constantly scan for markers and other craft and could barely make the 2 out at 500 ft. There was not a huge swell but both boats would constantly go in and out of view.

[Seaplane Pilot]

The suggestion of creating a new "law" was slightly tongue in cheek. However, it seems to parallel the methods by which the anti-powerboat (speed, noise, graphics, horsepower, wake, etc.) crowd wants to take control over the lake. Make a new law in hopes some of us will disappear. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to stay (with my powerboat).

However, I was dead serious about the use of the flag itself and the fact that kayakers should take much more care in making themselves visible to other boaters. Anyone that disagrees with the need for this type of visible flag on small kayaks and other craft needs to have their real agenda exposed.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

However, I was dead serious about the use of the flag itself and the fact that kayakers should take much more care in making themselves visible to other boaters. Anyone that disagrees with the need for this type of visible flag on small kayaks and other craft needs to have their real agenda exposed.

Agenda? Well I am a long time power boater and kayaker, safely enjoy each and have lots of experience at each. So that is my real agenda if you will.

As I noted in an earlier post my opinion is that flags are much less effective than safety color paddle blades. However I am not an advocate of establishing a new flag and paddle color police force nor am I an advocate of motor cycle helmets being mandatory even though I wear one.

The flag idea would actually decrease many paddlers ability to self rescue a kayak. Many flat water kayakers, my wife and I included, come form a whitewater kayaking background and have effective and reliable kayak rolls. A flatwater touring kayak rolls slower than a WW kayak and with somewhat more effort. A flag on a mast would make a combat roll very difficult or maybe even impossible.

[robmac]

I am some what confused. When an option comes up that would help everyone from a safety standpoint paddlers find it a bad suggestion? I would think all boaters would want to work to make the waterways as safe as we can for all that enjoy them. I would think and hope all boaters were wanting and looking for the same thing, a safe and friendly place to coexist on all of our waterways. Perhaps I am wishing but I would think that safety is everyones main concern. Just a thought IMHO.

[OCDACTIVE]

Great post Rob. I agree fully. We should support actions like this that makes sense. Perhaps a provision that if you are 150 feet from shore then you need the flag. I don't think it is necessary if you are going up a stream that is only 4 feet wide off of a bay.

I also think a $25 fee, useage sticker will go a long way to help raise funds for the navigation fund (provided they do not pilage it again!) It has always been said that paddlers have every right to the lake and voice towards legislation as power boaters, well then they shouldn't have an issue with having to also pay to use it. (I am also a kayaker and a powerboater, just seems fair)

[Winnipesaukee]

"Unfunded mandate", my two favorite words to complain about.

And please no more taxes. Boaters should only be "taxed" for the "wear and tear" they cause to the lake. I don't think kayaks need to pay a tax to support the Milfoil Eradication Fight.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by robmac

I am some what confused. When an option comes up that would help everyone from a safety standpoint paddlers find it a bad suggestion? I would think all boaters would want to work to make the waterways as safe as we can for all that enjoy them. I would think and hope all boaters were wanting and looking for the same thing, a safe and friendly place to coexist on all of our waterways. Perhaps I am wishing but I would think that safety is everyones main concern. Just a thought IMHO.

The question is at least twofold : Is this really a problem that needs a solution, a Govt solution ? ... and are "safety" flags a real answer ?

Frankly I doubt the former. Stingrays experience is one in extreme weather. It's not very often I see kayaks out when it's whitecaps and "Victory at Sea" (a great series though !) conditions. Would we all advocate having to wear PFDs at all times just because sometimes it really makes sense to do so ? In SR's condition it would seem the flags would have made the kayaks more visible though it would depend on the wave depth and flag height. The ones linked to in the OP would seem to be inadequate.

I also wonder about the latter question above. If you can't see the blades, I have to seriously doubt a flag will be any more visible. Or more visible than a brightly colored PFD and/or helmet. Now you could argue that it might not help but it doesn't hurt and that's were most kayakers I've listened to disagree. As said above in this thread having one attached hurts the ability to roll back right. The break-away design in the OP's link seem to try to address this issue but I have to again wonder if that really a workable solution (stays on in wakes and surf, breaks away underwater). But let's say it works, I would still have to ask if this is a big enough issue that "we" want to make kayakers put what I'm sure is a (dorky to them) flag on their boat. Simply saying it's a "safety" issue doesn't cut it, at least for me. Given the boat-boat collisions we've had, where the words "I didn't see him" were used, I could just as well argue that every boat should be glow green or blaze orange in order to enhance visibility. Afterall what could it hurt ... and it might help. So are all of us boaters are set to signup for those colors ? Perhaps safety isn't the main concern afterall but rather exists within a continuum of concerns. Seems to me everyone wants someone else to do something for our safety.

This all said it's at least an issue where the facts could be determined. We get enough good and bad weather and every other condition on the lake to do experiments and find the truth. I won't hold my breath though as that would actually take effort and time.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by topwater

I blew coffee out of my nose when I read such a foolish comment! I hope that was a shot of humor, because if it wasn't, you DON'T know much about nature. So please don't use that nature agrument... Moose charging a orange flag, LMAO. just plain foolish what some people will say. Yes, I have been hunting for 40 years, seen lots of moose, and after wearing my orange vest, I am still around to tell my woes.

Foolish ...YUP: You may be correct......Maybe I don't know much about NATURE..... Having never Blasted an animal out of his tracks...But I have (in my 69 years) learned something about HUMAN Nature. I find your post confusing. (No Emoticon) ...NB

PS: Just wondering what kind of FIRE POWER you had for Protection against a Moose in your 40 years of.......Hunting..?

[fatlazyless]

Yesiree Bud, a little whistle would probably be pretty effective in scaring off a wild animal such as a moose! Two toots on the whistle and you'd have Mr & Mrs Moose's attention because a moose is very aware of local noise and sounds. It's not for nothing that a moose has two large ears which get twitchy when the moose first detects a new sound.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by jrc

I never thought kayak visibilty was that big of an issue (except at night) until I read stingray's story. Now I'm thinking about getting that flag.

Usually, I'm a fair weather kayaker, just playing around while anchored out. But Sunday I did get stuck out in the pop-up rain that hit Gilford. The wind picked up for few minutes and there were some good size waves. It was all over in five minutes (except the rain) but it could have been worse. A little extra visibility couldn't hurt. I'm also thinking some bright tape for the paddle blades might help.

The stingray story makes no mention of maintaning a proper watch. His *** would be handed to him in court.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by jrc

I never thought kayak visibilty was that big of an issue (except at night) until I read stingray's story. Now I'm thinking about getting that flag.

Usually, I'm a fair weather kayaker, just playing around while anchored out. But Sunday I did get stuck out in the pop-up rain that hit Gilford. The wind picked up for few minutes and there were some good size waves. It was all over in five minutes (except the rain) but it could have been worse. A little extra visibility couldn't hurt. I'm also thinking some bright tape for the paddle blades might help.

I was trying to picture the scene when Stingray encountered six kayaks just 40 feet ahead of him. I would think that six kayaks bobbing around in the waves paddling would have been seen at some point when looking ahead, even with a cursory port/starboard lookout. I see where they are dark-colored kayaks, which I agree, are much harder to see. But coming upon six that close before seeing them?

Not judging, sounds like bow riding high perhaps while going slower?

I'm interested in paddles being a visibility enhancer. I must say, I've never seen paddles that were in any way bright or flashing in the sun, or any other time. I like it when yellow or white kayaks are out, much easier to see.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I'm interested in paddles being a visibility enhancer. I must say, I've never seen paddles that were in any way bright or flashing in the sun, or any other time. I like it when yellow or white kayaks are out, much easier to see.

You must be from Meredith. You see APS has been gluing CDs to paddles down this part of the lake and ...