Stand-on and give-way in crossing

[Dave R]

Yesterday, I was traveling east-south-east between Governor's Island and Stonedam Island at about 26 MPH in my motor boat. I was on a collision course with a motor boat traveling south west toward the channel between Governor's Island and Eagle Island (coming from the Bear Island direction) at a similar speed. The other boat was off my port bow, so mine was the stand-on vessel. I maintained course and speed as required. The other vessel did the same despite the fact that there was plenty of time and space to change his course a few degrees to west and end the collision course early and easily. Many seconds passed with no change is speed or course by the other boat and just as I was getting ready to take evasive action, the other vessel slowed down and dropped off-plane with about 200 feet separation. I was thinking "that's not how I would have handled it, but OK, he did what he had to do be legal and safe". The other operator then flung his hands up in disgust that was obviously aimed toward me as though I'd done something wrong.

With the requirement that all boat operators have a boating certificate in place for the past few years in NH, it's amazing to see that there are some people that don't seem to understand the very basics. It ain't rocket surgery.

[Phantom]

The Summer has begun ......


.

[Seaplane Pilot]

And you're surprised about this?

[donnamatrix]

On Sunday, in Moultonboro heading north near Suissevale beach -just coming out of what we consider a marked passage - there was a kayak on our right (on Suissevale) side - and we (and the boat in front of us) are both going headway speed to ensure kayakers don't get bowled over by the wash. The area broadens out a bit here - and the moron driving a pontoon boat behind us, passes us on the left - no more than 30 feet from our boat. I, of course, start screaming at the pontoon boat. I had my camera in my hand and took picture of the pontoon boat. The woman on the pontoon boat waved at me! What dangerous lunatics.

[Pricestavern]

Dave;

Unfortunately, you'll find that this little rule is the one that is broken most often. Search 'Captain Bonehead' on this forum and you'll find many posts along this line. Treat everyone you meet on the lake as if they've no clue - chances are they don't.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It ain't rocket surgery.

"rocket surgery?" Never heard of that one before.

[RailroadJoe]

They do it on land and on water. I wonder how it is in the air? Speeding that is.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

They do it on land and on water. I wonder how it is in the air? Speeding that is.

It's more of a self-solving problem in the air. Go too fast, or too slow, and the whole defying-gravity thing stops working.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Yesterday, I was traveling east-south-east between Governor's Island and Stonedam Island at about 26 MPH in my motor boat. I was on a collision course with a motor boat traveling south west toward the channel between Governor's Island and Eagle Island (coming from the Bear Island direction) at a similar speed. The other boat was off my port bow, so mine was the stand-on vessel. I maintained course and speed as required. The other vessel did the same despite the fact that there was plenty of time and space to change his course a few degrees to west and end the collision course early and easily. Many seconds passed with no change is speed or course by the other boat and just as I was getting ready to take evasive action, the other vessel slowed down and dropped off-plane with about 200 feet separation. I was thinking "that's not how I would have handled it, but OK, he did what he had to do be legal and safe". The other operator then flung his hands up in disgust that was obviously aimed toward me as though I'd done something wrong.


With the requirement that all boat operators have a boating certificate in place for the past few years in NH, it's amazing to see that there are some people that don't seem to understand the very basics. It ain't rocket surgery.

When I'm on my boat, I'm never in a hurry to get anywhere (unless I'm trying to beat a thunderstorm, but that's another story). As such, I try to avoid any and all situations that would cause any anxiety or conflict...i just want to relax and enjoy.
I had a friend on my boat 2 weekends ago who told me he was considering getting his own pontoon boat and asked me what I considered to be the primary and most important rules of the road while boating. I've posted these rules before, I will post them again. I live by these rules.

1. I never, ever have the right of way, I will gladly give way to any other boat or boater no matter how we may be converging.
2. When in doubt, refer to rule # 1.

Stay happy, and safe.

[Charlie T]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

When I'm on my boat, I'm never in a hurry to get anywhere (unless I'm trying to beat a thunderstorm, but that's another story). As such, I try to avoid any and all situations that would cause any anxiety or conflict...i just want to relax and enjoy.
I had a friend on my boat 2 weekends ago who told me he was considering getting his own pontoon boat and asked me what I considered to be the primary and most important rules of the road while boating. I've posted these rules before, I will post them again. I live by these rules.

1. I never, ever have the right of way, I will gladly give way to any other boat or boater no matter how we may be converging.
2. When in doubt, refer to rule # 1.

Stay happy, and safe.

I would add to that

3, Always remember Capt. Bonehead can just as easily sneak up from behind as he can from the front and side. Always scan 360 deg to stay safe.

[MeredithMan]

.....it's a cross between rocket science and brain surgery....

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

When I'm on my boat, I'm never in a hurry to get anywhere (unless I'm trying to beat a thunderstorm, but that's another story). As such, I try to avoid any and all situations that would cause any anxiety or conflict...i just want to relax and enjoy.
I had a friend on my boat 2 weekends ago who told me he was considering getting his own pontoon boat and asked me what I considered to be the primary and most important rules of the road while boating. I've posted these rules before, I will post them again. I live by these rules.

1. I never, ever have the right of way, I will gladly give way to any other boat or boater no matter how we may be converging.
2. When in doubt, refer to rule # 1.

Stay happy, and safe.

When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so.

[Phantom]

Now don't start getting all Legal !!

Sanity & self preservation prevails .... I TOTALLY Agree with Gourmand (can't bring myself to say Phantom )

Legal is for when you are explaining why the bonehead is sitting in the middle of the Witches.



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[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Now don't start getting all Legal !!

Sanity & self preservation prevails .... I TOTALLY Agree with Gourmand (can't bring myself to say Phantom )

Legal is for when you are explaining why the bonehead is sitting in the middle of the Witches.



.

Honestly, I feel like doing that just encourages people to operate negligently.

If I'm the stand-on vessel, I stand-on until it's clearly putting myself/boat/passengers at risk by doing so. I'll try to signal the other operator in some way if it looks like they are currently boating sans-clue. At the same time, I don't get worked up about little stuff.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Dave R

When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so.

This really not true in NH waters. Read Chapter 270 D2. A boat needs to keep out of the way of a boat on it's starboard and allow the other boat to maintain.

Plus this rule sums up the intent:

V. If, when vessels are approaching each other, either vessel fails to understand the course or intention of the other from any cause, such vessel or vessels shall immediately slow to a speed barely sufficient for steerage until the vessels have safely passed each other. If it appears the danger of collision is imminent both vessels shall stop or reverse and not proceed until such danger has been averted.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jrc

This really not true in NH waters. Read Chapter 270 D2. A boat needs to keep out of the way of a boat on it's starboard and allow the other boat to maintain.

Plus this rule sums up the intent:

V. If, when vessels are approaching each other, either vessel fails to understand the course or intention of the other from any cause, such vessel or vessels shall immediately slow to a speed barely sufficient for steerage until the vessels have safely passed each other. If it appears the danger of collision is imminent both vessels shall stop or reverse and not proceed until such danger has been averted.

This is the key law in 270 D2: "III When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed."

One would only use part V if part III does not work, in other words, part V is the " unless you can't safely do so" part of my statement: "When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so."; part III would be the first half of the statement.

Also, there was absolutely no ambiguity about my course or intention. It was quite obvious.

[P-3 Guy]

So what part of the law says that the operator of the stand-on vessel is legally obligated to maintain course and speed?

[jrc]

"shall keep" is a requirement, "allow" is a requirement, you can be cited for this as the boat with someone to starboard. There are no words forcing the boat on the starboard side to do anything. He is allowed to keep course and speed, he is not legally obliged, at least in NH law.

I was posting this in response to your belief that stopping to let another boat pass, when you are not obliged to give way is somehow illegal. It's really silly to believe this. If you have any doubt about their course and speed, you can stop and let them pass. You should always have some doubt.

If I see a crossing boat, I'm the privileged boat, he turns to go behind me, I can speed up to increase the distance. He turns to go in front of me, I can slow down to increase the distance. Its really silly to think that I as the privileged boat, cannot adjust my course or speed to improve a crossing.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by Dave R

When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so.

If this is right, and I don't think it is, my preference is to not be DEAD right.
See my rule # 2. It was made for situations like this.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

If this is right, and I don't think it is, my preference is to not be DEAD right.
See my rule # 2. It was made for situations like this.

The "can't safely do so part" is key. No one should cause an accident.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Dave R

The "can't safely do so part" is key. No one should cause an accident.

I believe the primary rule on the water comes down to "avoid a collision". The other rules are to help accomplish the primary rule. The intent of the stand-on rule is to keep that vessel on a steady predictable course so that the other vessel can take action to avoid it. If both boats are attempting avoidance it is possible that their actions could cancel each other out and the collision could still be possible.

Given that the other operator is very possibly ignorant of the rules, the primary rule of collision avoidance by dropping to minimal speed takes precedence. I have had to do this several times a year because I have no clue what the other operator is doing. And... once in a while I have a brain skip and do something stupid myself. I try not to make it a habit and afterward I usually realize that I was the dope.

It's good that a collision was avoided and amusing that the clueless person was annoyed that you knew the rules and stuck to them.

[Pineedles]

Right, Left, Port, Starboard, Give way, I agree with jeffk. it's all designed to help avoid collision. But, it's for captains, not morons. There are still too many morons on the lake. Are you reading this cappy morons? Hire somebody to pilot your expensive boats! Gawd, things were never this bad years ago.

[KDL]

It still amazes me how many operators do not know or ignore this simple rule.

I always thought some simple signage at launch ramps explaining some of the basic rules would go a long way.

[salty dog]

"If it becomes apparent that the actions taken (or not taken) by the give-way vessel are dangerous or insufficient, the stand-on vessel must act to avoid collision." I had to refer to Phantom Gormand's rule 2 at least 3 times on Sunday. Just another weekend at the lake!

[Capt.Ken]

Whenever I'm faced with this situation, I give an indication of direction change by spinning my steering wheel 180 degrees away from the oncoming boat, then immediately back to where it started, this doesnt change the direction of my boat, but gives a visual "nod" if you will to the oncoming boat that I'm heading in another direction. Most of the time the other boater will react by changing course in the opposite direction. If this doesnt work I'll change direction, even if I have the right of way.
You can hang on the rules all you want, but your assuming that the other guy knows what he's doing. The final rule is to take any measure possible to avoid a collision, or you could wind up dead right.

[challmec]

Good Morning
Have been reading this post and am quite amused ..This situation that Dave R brought forth has happened to me many times over the past several years and there is no rhyme or reason for such things,,I have been almost cut to pieces too many times and have come to the conclusion that there are alot of inexperienced and rude boaters that are out there that just don't follow the rules..That being said those of use that live by the code are put into UN-deserved and precarious situations that compromise the safety of all involved..
My best advise is to always navigate in a defensive posture especially on weekends. I try really hard to avoid these boneheads out there but at times it is difficult. Fortunately I am in a position to do most of my boating during the week when there are considerably less boaters and the water is much more manageable..
Its too bad that it has to be that way but.....
Be safe out there Dave even though you are in the right the other guy just doesn't get it!!

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Capt.Ken

Whenever I'm faced with this situation, I give an indication of direction change by spinning my steering wheel 180 degrees away from the oncoming boat, then immediately back to where it started, this doesnt change the direction of my boat, but gives a visual "nod" if you will to the oncoming boat that I'm heading in another direction. Most of the time the other boater will react by changing course in the opposite direction. If this doesnt work I'll change direction, even if I have the right of way.
You can hang on the rules all you want, but your assuming that the other guy knows what he's doing. The final rule is to take any measure possible to avoid a collision, or you could wind up dead right.

The problem with this is that while you think you have sent a clear signal to the other boat of your intentions, if I was in the other boat I might think you were a drunk or inattentive driver. There is no agreed upon interpretation of the "nod". That means that no one can be sure of what you intend.

If I stick to the agreed upon rules as much as I can I can figure that at least some will know how it should work. If it becomes clear they do not, I can take whatever action I need to avoid a collision.

[Orion]

All this assumes the other boat sees you at all. The same people who are texting and driving cars are texting (or worse) and "piloting" boats. They run into islands, what makes you think they won't run into you? BTW, the islands have the right of way, too.

That being said, the right of way rule is designed to eliminate the problem of both boats making a correction and potentially making the problem worse. In the end, you do what you have to do.....unless you're an island, then stand-on.

[Dave R]

Just want to be clear. I have never advocated maintaining course and speed if it means risk of collision. During my outing on Sunday, there was never any risk of collision. The term "collision course" is not meant to imply risk, it just means that two objects will occupy the same space at some point if at least one does not change course or speed. If you are moving on a lake, you are ALWAYS on a collision course with something since the boundaries are finite.

When mine is the give-way boat, I bet the pilot of the stand-on vessel rarely knows we were ever on a collision course. As the give-way, I endeavor to make small course adjustments very early so that the collision course is prevented long before it's even apparent to most people. If another boat is on a constant bearing (relative to you) with a decreasing range, you are on a collision course. You can easily see this with miles of separation of you know what you are looking for. As the give-way, simply adjust course a few degrees to starboard and assuming the stand on boat maintains course and speed, the relative bearing on the stand on boat will begin to decrease as range decreases. When that happens, there's no collision course.

[RailroadJoe]

It doesn't really matter what the rules are, if you can see an accicent about to happen. Just stop and let the bonehead go his way.

I don't have a boat but the same things happen on the road.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Boating used to be fun, but just like everything else, the fun seems to be a thing of the past. More rules, more regulations more laws and all it did was produce more BONEHEADS. Crazy.

[Capt.Ken]

The "nod " is only a tool in the tool box, its not meant to be a final course of action.
Just like someone running a read light while you have a green, you cant always stick to the rules. You ultimately are required to avoid collision.

[Woodsy]

Wow....

The COLREGS and subsequently most of the NH Boating rules were written long before runabouts... they were designed for large slow lumbering ships that were difficult to maneuver and took along time to stop or change course.

On the lake in while driving a recreational boat the stand on or give way should really only come into play when overtaking or when being overtaken. This was discussed in an earlier thread.

The boats we all drive on the lake are small relatively fast and highly maneuverable. With that being said, usually a minor course or speed correction avoids the whole stand on/give way issue/150' rule issue. There is no reason for runabouts to ever be in danger of collision, and boat vs boat collisions are pretty rare here in NH. I really credit the 150' rule for this. Even though the 150' distance is subjectively argued.... if a boat is what I estimate to be 70 ft away from me I don't worry...

My advice.... keep your head on a swivel at all times. When in doubt of the other guys intentions change your course or speed.... assume he doesn't see you or recognize the possibility of a collision. If you are overtaking someone, swing as wide as possible, in case they don't see you or the abruptly change course. When being overtaken... hold your course and speed until they have passed.

The #1 rule: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO AVOID A COLLISION. Doesn't matter who has the Right of Way.


Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Wow....

The COLREGS and subsequently most of the NH Boating rules were written long before runabouts... they were designed for large slow lumbering ships that were difficult to maneuver and took along time to stop or change course.

On the lake in while driving a recreational boat the stand on or give way should really only come into play when overtaking or when being overtaken. This was discussed in an earlier thread.

The boats we all drive on the lake are small relatively fast and highly maneuverable. With that being said, usually a minor course or speed correction avoids the whole stand on/give way issue/150' rule issue. There is no reason for runabouts to ever be in danger of collision, and boat vs boat collisions are pretty rare here in NH. I really credit the 150' rule for this. Even though the 150' distance is subjectively argued.... if a boat is what I estimate to be 70 ft away from me I don't worry...

My advice.... keep your head on a swivel at all times. When in doubt of the other guys intentions change your course or speed.... assume he doesn't see you or recognize the possibility of a collision. If you are overtaking someone, swing as wide as possible, in case they don't see you or the abruptly change course. When being overtaken... hold your course and speed until they have passed.

The #1 rule: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO AVOID A COLLISION. Doesn't matter who has the Right of Way.


Woodsy

I've noticed in the wakes thrown in our recent flat-calm waters, that the Winnipesaukee Belle and a couple of construction barges "weave" a path across the lake. You could be the "stand-on" boat one minute, and have to change course in the next moment.



So we still have large slow lumbering ships that are difficult to maneuver and take a long time to stop or change course. They both have flat-bottom hulls and could be "dead-ahead" for many minutes.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Boating used to be fun, but just like everything else, the fun seems to be a thing of the past. More rules, more regulations more laws and all it did was produce more BONEHEADS. Crazy.

Perhaps it has to do with the popularity of boating and of this lake? The "old swimming hole" is lots of fun when there are only a few there. No rules either. But if lots of people start showing up, soon you have someone jumping on top of someone else and they get hurt. Rules start springing up. Then you get those who ignore the new rules. They probably don't realize why the rules are needed because they "just are out to have a good time".

There are now a lot of small, fast, and highly maneuverable boats (jet skis) around that add to the chaos. Anyone can afford one. Invulnerable young folks can't be bothered to learn the rules or follow them. Too many people that have learned, sometimes forcibly, that drinking and driving is NOT OK think that drinking and boating is an essential combination. The most important rule, IMO, is extremely simple and common sense: If you are close to anything or anyone, you have to slow down to headway speed. Yet, people are ignorant of it or simply do not care. It is constantly violated. I know that it sure ruins my fun when someone goes by me, even at 20 MPH, when they are too close.

And if you think a quickie review that allows you to get your certificate is going to make a significant impression on most people, forget it. Learn quickly, forget quickly. It amazes me that we require driving classes, hands on experience, and a written and road test to get an auto license. But for a operating a boat, a FAR more difficult task because of the free form nature of the environment, no practical experience is required or tested.

[jrc]

The rules get even messier when you hit traffic. At some of the popular "choke points", a lot of boats are converging from many directions. You may be the stand-on to the guy crossing from your left, and the give-way for the guy crossing from your right.

It actually happened to me near where Dave's incident occurred. I was going North along Governor's Island towards Meredith, and encountered the "freeway" between Bear Island and Eagle Island. I stopped for the westbound traffic, the eastbound traffic stopped for me and waved me on. I couldn't proceed, he was confused.