AMC and Blueberry

[Randardo]

So I sent a letter to the AMC, needless to say I was VERY thorough with atch'd documentation and photo's... I've yet to hear a response....

Greetings,
Not sure to whom I should address this, but there’s an ongoing issue regarding the appropriate use of Blueberry (Minister) Island on Lake Winnipesaukee. As a Winnipesaukee boater it my (and others) understanding that Blueberry Island is off limits to any and all based upon the Keep Out, No Trespassing, Violators Will Be Prosecuted signs posted all over the Island.
I certainly understand what these terms mean both fundamentally and legally. I’d go so far as to say most if not all boaters respect these signs, along with No Wake Zones, No Rafting Zones, Idle Speed Zones, etc found elsewhere on the lake. Most boaters pride themselves abiding by and at times enforcing these directives when they see other violating them.
Here’s where Blueberry Island becomes contentious. No Trespassing, Keep Out is very clear language, more so Violators Will Be Prosecuted, except if you’re from Three Mile Island… If you are you have full use of the Island… Boaters don’t see it this way and there’s no clear language, or from my research, legal documented authority for Three Mile Island visitors to be on the island, it’s all hearsay…
It’s sad to see trash on Blueberry Island as we’ve seen in the past, just last week canoes were tied to trees on the Island while others were “stuffed” into the blueberry bushes. Leave no trace, minimal impact, take only pictures, leave only footprints…
My goal is to have the AMC to clearly define Blueberry Island use. Therefore, I called the AMC on 13 Jul 23 and was referred to your director of communications who then referred me to Nicky Pizzo. My conversation with Nicky was very odd, she spoke from a position of authority with zero comprehension or knowledge of the subject matter. She mentioned that she just visited Three Mile Island for the first time but had no knowledge of Blueberry Island. No clarity here.
I called NH Marine Patrol to understand their role if any, the officer began his response with “It is our understanding….” No clarity there.
I called the Moultonborough Assessors Office to see if they had any insight regarding AMC ownership or stewardship of Blueberry Island, there’s no mention of the AMC on any tax record or associated documents regarding Blueberry Island. No clarity there.
There are unofficial discussions on the Forum regarding Blueberry Island. https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...ad.php?t=23618
The Three Mile Island FAQ discusses Blueberry Island. https://www.threemileislandcamp.org/faqs
Activities
What types of activities are available at Three Mile Island?
Explore the Lake:
Three Mile is located at the northern end of Lake Winnipesaukee, a 26-mile-long lake with over 240 islands in the heart of New Hampshire's Lake District. There are many hour-to day-long canoe trips around the lake, only limited by the skill and imagination of the canoeist. Popular destinations include Blueberry Island, with a wide, sandy beach and occasional Eagles' nest with eaglets, and Stonedam Island, a natural preserve owned by the Lakes Region Conservation Trust. Three Mile has a small fleet of sunfish, kayaks, and small sailboats available for guests. Fishing and sailing are also popular.
Found the Stonedam Island comment very interesting, clearly states owned by LRCT with a link to provide further information, nothing regarding Blueberry Island however.
I reached out directly to Three Mile Island:
Lindsay Cartmell and Alex Wells
From:tmimanager2@gmail.com
Cc:manager@3mile.org
Mon, Jul 17 at 6:35 PM
Hi Randy!
Thanks so much for reaching out! To the best of my knowledge, the AMC does not own Blueberry Island, but helps steward the island in coordination with the owners of the island.
I hope this helps!
Best,
Alex Wells
TMI Assistant Manager
On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 4:15 PM wrote:
Lindsay,
I'm a boater on Winni and I'm trying to figure out the relationship between 3 Mile and Blueberry, does the AMC own it?
Thanks much!
There is one obscure sign on the Island (photo atch’d) “Private Property Appalachian Mountain Club”. Does this mean the AMC owns the property? That would contradict the property record (atch’d).
Signage and language to the effect of…. Would go a long way to clarifying for all.
Private Property, off limits to Winnipesaukee boaters… No Trespassing with the exception of AMC Staff and guests residing at Three Mile Island per cooperation between Blueberry Island Owners and the AMC.
I respectfully ask someone at the AMC take this on and provide clear guidance to all, and post clear signage on the Island.

Regards,
Randy

[camp guy]

Not ever having done much boating in the area of Blueberry Island, nor that of Three Mile Island, and only based on what is presented by Randy on this Forum, I'd say the gentleman has a valid point, and somebody who knows something ought to respond to clear the air.

[P-3 Guy]

Blueberry Island is owned by a family trust ("Priscilla Lodge Blueberry Island Trust"). There has been a decades long relationship between the trust families and Three Mile Island Camp. There is currently a written agreement between the trust and the Appalachian Mountain Club that grants exclusive use of Blueberry Island to Three Mile Island campers and staff, when members of the trust's families are not using the island. Use by any other parties is considered to be trespassing.

Unfortunately, I know from many years of personal experience that despite the signs, trespassing is a frequent occurrence, and politely asking trespassers to leave the island is often met with hostile and disrespectful reactions (and sometimes, made up stories: "I know the owner and have permission," or something similar). To all those who respect the Private Property signs, thank you.

Edited to add that I believe Nicky Pizzo is new to her position, so it's no surprise that she has no knowledge of Blueberry Island or the agreement between the trust and the AMC.

[LoveLakeLife]

A piece of trivium: it was also known as Wilmington Island as per a sign nailed to a tree near the other signs. A sure stumper in a lake trivia game.


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[Randardo]

To you comment "There is currently a written agreement...." is my point of contention, I've heard this from numerous sources, yet from my research no one know of the location of this so called document, hence my hearsay comment. I'm just asking for clarity and full transparency from the AMC, doubt I'll get it, but that's my hope.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Randardo

"I'm just asking for clarity and full transparency from the AMC, doubt I'll get it, but that's my hope.

Why?

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[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Randardo

To you comment "There is currently a written agreement...." is my point of contention, I've heard this from numerous sources, yet from my research no one know of the location of this so called document, hence my hearsay comment. I'm just asking for clarity and full transparency from the AMC, doubt I'll get it, but that's my hope.

I'm an AMC volunteer at Three Mile Island Camp who for more than 10 years has been the direct AMC/TMI liaison with the trust representative. I have a copy of the written agreement, as do the trust representative and the appropriate AMC staff, including the management team on Three Mile Island. My previous post provided clarity and full transparency. What more do you need? As you have pointed out, there are "signs posted all over the Island" stating PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO TRESPASSING. How can it be any clearer? The written use agreement, similar to a lease or rental agreement, isn't something that would normally be made available for public inspection. It's a private agreement between two parties. It isn't filed at the Carroll County Registry of Deeds, but you can certainly easily verify the ownership of Blueberry Island by doing an online search at the registry's website. Use the search term "Priscilla Lodge Blueberry Island Trust." You can do a title history search if you like. Ancestors of the Anderson, North and Gray families have had an ownership interest in Blueberry Island going back to the 1800s.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

I'm an AMC volunteer at Three Mile Island Camp who for more than 10 years has been the direct AMC/TMI liaison with the trust representative. I have a copy of the written agreement, as do the trust representative and the appropriate AMC staff, including the management team on Three Mile Island. My previous post provided clarity and full transparency. What more do you need? As you have pointed out, there are "signs posted all over the Island" stating PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO TRESPASSING. How can it be any clearer? The written use agreement, similar to a lease or rental agreement, isn't something that would normally be made available for public inspection. It's a private agreement between two parties. It isn't filed at the Carroll County Registry of Deeds, but you can certainly easily verify the ownership of Blueberry Island by doing an online search at the registry's website. Use the search term "Priscilla Lodge Blueberry Island Trust." You can do a title history search if you like. Ancestors of the Anderson, North and Gray families have had an ownership interest in Blueberry Island going back to the 1800s.

Thank you for this.

There was a thread similar to this on the iBoat Facebook page a couple weeks ago, and I. Just. Don't. Understand.

My MO is if it's not clearly public, or if explicit permission hasn't been given, stay off.

I know NH law says different, but, as I said on that thread, I draw a clear line between legality and courtesy.

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[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Thank you for this.

There was a thread similar to this on the iBoat Facebook page a couple weeks ago, and I. Just. Don't. Understand.

My MO is if it's not clearly public, or if explicit permission hasn't been given, stay off.

I know NH law says different, but, as I said on that thread, I draw a clear line between legality and courtesy.

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I am not aware of any part of New Hampshire law that allows for unfettered public access, even for recreational purposes, to private property when the property owner has explicitly told the public by means of posted signs stating "Private Property - Keep Off - No Trespassing" or something similar that such use is not welcome. Otherwise, what's the point of owning real property if the owner has certain burdens of ownership (property taxes, maybe insurance and costs of upkeep) but can't enjoy the benefit of personal, private use? If I have this wrong, I hope someone will chime in with a reference to an applicable statute.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

I am not aware of any part of New Hampshire law that allows for unfettered public access, even for recreational purposes, to private property when the property owner has explicitly told the public by means of posted signs stating "Private Property - Keep Off - No Trespassing" or something similar that such use is not welcome. Otherwise, what's the point of owning real property if the owner has certain burdens of ownership (property taxes, maybe insurance and costs of upkeep) but can't enjoy the benefit of personal, private use? If I have this wrong, I hope someone will chime in with a reference to an applicable statute.

Maybe I wasn't clear: NH common law (link below) allows public use of private land unless appropriately posted.

My point was that people should assume all land is owned/private even if not posted.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...fgfNsiWnKZvwxH

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[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Maybe I wasn't clear: NH common law (link below) allows public use of private land unless appropriately posted.

My point was that people should assume all land is owned/private even if not posted.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...fgfNsiWnKZvwxH

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Understood, and thank you. Should there be any debate about whether or not Blueberry Island is appropriately posted? An effort is definitely made, but it's not uncommon for signs to be ripped down. ("Signs? What signs?")

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

Understood, and thank you. Should there be any debate about whether or not Blueberry Island is appropriately posted? An effort is definitely made, but it's not uncommon for signs to be ripped down. ("Signs? What signs?")

Every time I've been to Blueberry, it's been CLEARLY posted. It's only a few times a summer, though, so I can't attest to 100% of the time.

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[Randardo]

Signage and language to the effect of…. Would go a long way to clarifying for all.

Private Property, off limits to Winnipesaukee boaters… No Trespassing with the exception of AMC Staff and guests residing at Three Mile Island per cooperation between Blueberry Island Owners and the AMC.

[tis]

I'm sorry, but this really irritates me. Even if somebody doesn't have signs, it's pretty obvious SOMEBODY owns an island or any land and what makes people think they have a right to use other people's property????? I just don't get this entitlement mentality.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

I'm sorry, but this really irritates me. Even if somebody doesn't have signs, it's pretty obvious SOMEBODY owns an island or any land and what makes people think they have a right to use other people's property????? I just don't get this entitlement mentality.

That would be State law enshrining a tradition that dates back to colonial times.
I must post my property legally against trespass or it is considered open to non-motorized use trespass. Or I have the option of fencing my entire property... a rather expensive option.

RSA 635:4 defines the legally requirements of posting property.

The other question would be the property tax classification of the island. If the island was in a Current Use II status... very hard to post, as hunting/fishing/scouting has to be allowed with some reasonable exceptions.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That would be State law enshrining a tradition that dates back to colonial times.
I must post my property legally against trespass or it is considered open to non-motorized use trespass. Or I have the option of fencing my entire property... a rather expensive option.

RSA 635:4 defines the legally requirements of posting property.

The other question would be the property tax classification of the island. If the island was in a Current Use II status... very hard to post, as hunting/fishing/scouting has to be allowed with some reasonable exceptions.

The island isn't big enough to qualify for current use.

[Randardo]

Keep drinking the AMC Flavor-Aid Brother, congrats on 10 years, hope you got a cool t-shirt!

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Randardo

Keep drinking the AMC Flavor-Aid Brother, congrats on 10 years, hope you got a cool t-shirt!

Don't you worry; what I get for what I do is much better than a t-shirt.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Randardo

Signage and language to the effect of…. Would go a long way to clarifying for all.

Private Property, off limits to Winnipesaukee boaters… No Trespassing with the exception of AMC Staff and guests residing at Three Mile Island per cooperation between Blueberry Island Owners and the AMC.

Oh please. This is America--no one owes you an explanation for their private property.

[Randardo]

PRIVATE PROPERTY
AMC
Appalachian Mountain Club

Private Property Define:

Private property refers to the ownership of property by private parties - essentially anyone or anything other than the government. Private property may consist of real estate, buildings, objects, intellectual property (copyright, patent, trademark, and trade secrets).

This sign alone makes my point, it "appears" to the layman that Blueberry Island is "owned" by the AMC....

This is getting more and more entertaining!

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Randardo

Signage and language to the effect of…. Would go a long way to clarifying for all.

Private Property, off limits to Winnipesaukee boaters… No Trespassing with the exception of AMC Staff and guests residing at Three Mile Island per cooperation between Blueberry Island Owners and the AMC.

It's been clarified for you. Three Mile Island Camp staff and guests know that they are allowed to use Blueberry Island under an agreement with the owners. If you are not in either of these groups, the numerous signs clearly tell you that you need to stay off the island, and this is all you really need to know. I have given you the courtesy of a full explanation as to how things work, which is more than you are entitled to. Thank you for respecting the wishes of the Blueberry Island owners by staying off the island.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by P-3 Guy

It's been clarified for you. Three Mile Island Camp staff and guests know that they are allowed to use Blueberry Island under an agreement with the owners. If you are not in either of these groups, the numerous signs clearly tell you that you need to stay off the island, and this is all you really need to know. I have given you the courtesy of a full explanation as to how things work, which is more than you are entitled to. Thank you for respecting the wishes of the Blueberry Island owners by staying off the island.

Actually the statement ''Private Property'' does not legally qualify under the statute.
While the written agreement provides the AMC with some management authority over the property, the signage is less than required by statute. RSA 635:4 is pretty specific in that it must state what is not allowed - such as ''No Trespass without the written permission of the AMC".
The SFPNHF has some pretty distinct signage used around their properties, and those they manage, along with even more explicit signage at what would constitute a natural point of entry.

The statute is very hard to prosecute... and an island probably would make it worse... since the "first" offense is seldom even bothered to be ticketed with the violation.

I have found over the years that there will always be that certain percentage of the population that will push the limit beyond common courtesy... which is why we probably have a statute in the first place. Those will be the ones that you'll have an issue with.

[Randardo]

So why bother posting anything and instead allow any and all to use the island? The AMC goes through such trouble to make the property "exclusive" to their guests, gosh it's like we're at a resort.

I've asked all along for the AMC to clearly define the rules, simple request as I see it.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Actually the statement ''Private Property'' does not legally qualify under the statute.
While the written agreement provides the AMC with some management authority over the property, the signage is less than required by statute. RSA 635:4 is pretty specific in that it must state what is not allowed - such as ''No Trespass without the written permission of the AMC".
The SFPNHF has some pretty distinct signage used around their properties, and those they manage, along with even more explicit signage at what would constitute a natural point of entry.

The statute is very hard to prosecute... and an island probably would make it worse... since the "first" offense is seldom even bothered to be ticketed with the violation.

I have found over the years that there will always be that certain percentage of the population that will push the limit beyond common courtesy... which is why we probably have a statute in the first place. Those will be the ones that you'll have an issue with.

You don't know what the full written agreement does (or does not) provide.

The AMC cannot grant island use privileges to third parties.

[John Mercier]

I didn't say I did.
I stated the sign is not a legal posting according to the statute.

It does not define what is prohibited.
It simply states that it is Private Property.
The statute is specific in that the sign must state what is prohibited.
And must include the owner/manager and their address.

[Randardo]

Precisely! NO ONE KNOWS what the agreement says save for the AMC, good heavens we're flirting with ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity.

Why the secret???? Exactly what I asked of Tracy Pizzo who completely dismissed and deflected my questions today... She added the most ignorant and uninformed statement ever... "I've never been out to Blueberry Island, but I know there aren't any issues out there"

Let everyone know what the agreement says and post signs accordingly.

Glad the AMC is taking care of you P-3!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Randardo

Precisely! NO ONE KNOWS what the agreement says save for the AMC, good heavens we're flirting with ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity.

Why the secret???? Exactly what I asked of Tracy Pizzo who completely dismissed and deflected my questions today... She added the most ignorant and uninformed statement ever... "I've never been out to Blueberry Island, but I know there aren't any issues out there"

Let everyone know what the agreement says and post signs accordingly.

Glad the AMC is taking care of you P-3!

Why are you pushing this? It's PRIVATE PROPERTY and you don't have permission to use it.

If you want permission to use it, become a Three Mile Island worker or guest.

Otherwise, YOU'RE exactly why so many private properties are no longer accessible by the public—no different than a snowmobiler bypassing closed gates, a mountain biker ignoring trail closed signs, kayakers using an island property for a bathroom, etc.

In fact, in your original letter, even YOU recognize that—even with clear signage—people are still leaving trash, damaging flora, etc.

I really don't understand what you're trying to do here.

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[fatlazyless]

I recall from an old Winnipesaukee Forum thread on Three Mile Island, maybe ten or fifteen years ago, it was said that Three Mile Island and a couple small adjoining islands owned by A.M.C. were in current use and paid the town an agreed $20,000./year as a property tax payment for land and buildings for their three(?) islands.

Renaming the Appalachian Mountain Club to be the Appalachian Money Club by Appalachian Trail thru-hikers as they hike through the White Mountain National Forest is a comment sometimes heard on the trail.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Why are you pushing this? It's PRIVATE PROPERTY and you don't have permission to use it.

If you want permission to use it, become a Three Mile Island worker or guest.

Otherwise, YOU'RE exactly why so many private properties are no longer accessible by the public—no different than a snowmobiler bypassing closed gates, a mountain biker ignoring trail closed signs, kayakers using an island property for a bathroom, etc.

In fact, in your original letter, even YOU recognize that—even with clear signage—people are still leaving trash, damaging flora, etc.

I really don't understand what you're trying to do here.

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Actually... in your example.

The snowmobiler and mountain biker trails as described would be legally prohibited under the RSA 635:4 because of the gate and the posting that the trail is closed. They could be cited for a trespass violation.

The kayakers, though not very well-mannered, didn't violate any law... unless the property was legally posted against trespass.

As property owners, it is our responsibility under the law to follow the law as to our intent. We must fence/gate or legally post the prohibition with our name and address.

If they change the sign to meet the legal requirement, LEOs would be able to cite the violation. Without that, someone authorized must verbally inform anyone to enters the property that they must leave... and should they want to press charges need to contact an LEO immediately. The LEO can only act when they witness the trespass.

[thinkxingu]

I don't typically share my name for a few reasons, not least of which is that whenever we go out, the people always shout. If you MUST know, though, it's John Schmidt. It's a not uncommon name; in fact, just last week while signing in for a wait at Canoe, the host said it was his name, too.

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[Randardo]

obviously not the best policy here....