Downings Landing - What a shame.

[NH_boater]

I have been a seasonal customer of Jon and Nancy for a few years and they always ran a good business. Nancy organizing the launches and trailering. Jon organizing the parking, keeping parking in the lines and in the right size spaces.

Today we likely to find cars in trailer only spaces, or trucks & trailers in car-top only spaces, Parking across the lines, in at funny angles, docks falling in the water, boats at the docks overnight, boats and trailers parked overnight, etc.
But worst of all, the inconsiderate and the ignorant have power loaded the hell out of the ramp leaving a 3-4" step down off the concrete ramp top and a steep crater right behind it. The mound of relocated bottom has resulted in a very shallow pad at the end of the dock, maybe 30" deep or less, where it used to be 6' or more. I trimmed up out at the end of the dock.

I have used this ramp hundreds of times over the years without incident. Maybe a touch of an angle if you backed in too much to the right but very smooth and the right angle. Today, my F150 struggled to pull my 23 footer up the steep ramp, especially at the step up that was never there before. A few more ignorant power loads and the ramp will be basically unusable for most boaters, until the ramp is repaired. Based on the deteriorating docks in only one year, my guess is that the F&G won't be spending much to repair the ramp. Without anyone present to provide direction and/or authority, Downing seems to be headed straight into the crapper. This is a shame for a business that worked so well for years.

I miss Jon and Nancy, and of course, wish them well. Too bad the new owners don't seem to have the interest, knowledge or budget to maintain this formally great facility. Jon and Nancy are friends, they must cringe as they see this business basically fall apart in only a year. I hope next year the F&G proves to be more active in maintenance and management or this ramp will be very poor or dangerous.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by NH_boater

I have been a seasonal customer of Jon and Nancy for a few years and they always ran a good business. Nancy organizing the launches and trailering. Jon organizing the parking, keeping parking in the lines and in the right size spaces.

Today we likely to find cars in trailer only spaces, or trucks & trailers in car-top only spaces, Parking across the lines, in at funny angles, docks falling in the water, boats at the docks overnight, boats and trailers parked overnight, etc.
But worst of all, the inconsiderate and the ignorant have power loaded the hell out of the ramp leaving a 3-4" step down off the concrete ramp top and a steep crater right behind it. The mound of relocated bottom has resulted in a very shallow pad at the end of the dock, maybe 30" deep or less, where it used to be 6' or more. I trimmed up out at the end of the dock.

I have used this ramp hundreds of times over the years without incident. Maybe a touch of an angle if you backed in too much to the right but very smooth and the right angle. Today, my F150 struggled to pull my 23 footer up the steep ramp, especially at the step up that was never there before. A few more ignorant power loads and the ramp will be basically unusable for most boaters, until the ramp is repaired. Based on the deteriorating docks in only one year, my guess is that the F&G won't be spending much to repair the ramp. Without anyone present to provide direction and/or authority, Downing seems to be headed straight into the crapper. This is a shame for a business that worked so well for years.

I miss Jon and Nancy, and of course, wish them well. Too bad the new owners don't seem to have the interest, knowledge or budget to maintain this formally great facility. Jon and Nancy are friends, they must cringe as they see this business basically fall apart in only a year. I hope next year the F&G proves to be more active in maintenance and management or this ramp will be very poor or dangerous.

Hey, it's free. Give them a chance to do what is on the drawing boards. I think we are extremely lucky to be able to use it while the changes are in the planning stage and then implemented, don't you???

[NH_boater]

Originally Posted by RLW

Hey, it's free. Give them a chance to do what is on the drawing boards. I think we are extremely lucky to be able to use it while the changes are in the planning stage and then implemented, don't you???

No I don't feel extremely lucky. I would much rather see them charge for a launch and maintain the facility with supervision and maintenance than the current plan of charge nothing and watch it fall apart. Ideally they provide both: free service and supervision/maintance.

As I stated, I hope next year proves to be different. I don't know their plans, maybe you do. I only know what I have seen in their first year of operation.

[searay220]

Originally Posted by NH_boater

No I don't feel extremely lucky. I would much rather see them charge for a launch and maintain the facility with supervision and maintenance than the current plan of charge nothing and watch it fall apart. Ideally they provide both: free service and supervision/maintance.

As I stated, I hope next year proves to be different. I don't know their plans, maybe you do. I only know what I have seen in their first year of operation.

I agree with NH boater completely. F+G should be ashamed of themselves letting Downings end up the way it is.

[LIforrelaxin]

Things change growing pains are inevitable.....

While you may not like the fact that Downings is now owned by the State, and its going to become a fish and Game access point. You must except it because it happening.

For far to long NH inland water ways have had restricted access to what is supposed to be a public body of water. All the towns saw fit to start charging for the use of their facilities, and none of the current state facilities had adequate parking.

You can't claim to have a public access, with out making it accessible to everyone....

Last as I stated in another thread... Realize where the blame is.... it is on the people that use the facility and don't want to have consideration for others. Plain and simple....

[4Fun]

I just don't understand the need to power load? Am I missing something???? If you just position your trailer correctly it will slide on 90% of the way. 20 seconds of cranking and the its ready to go.

Is it just laziness or do some trailers require so much effort? I know all the ones I have used are easy to load...

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

I just don't understand the need to power load? Am I missing something???? If you just position your trailer correctly it will slide on 90% of the way. 20 seconds of cranking and the its ready to go.

Is it just laziness or do some trailers require so much effort? I know all the ones I have used are easy to load...

Given the rest of the description about people at the ramp, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it's just general incompetence.

[searay220]

"general incompetence" Well said!

Not only is it at the ramp but also on the water. The no-wake zone in Alton Bay has been completely ignored by boaters coming from and going to the "New Public Ramp". Alton Bay now has a new class of boaters.

[NH_boater]

There are parts of the country where the ramps are 100% concrete and power loading is not a problem. That is why there is a big sign saying 'no power loading'. It used to be a $100 fine under the Downings.

I do not glide onto the trailer. I tie up, trailer backs down, walk the boat onto the trailer with a line on the stern and bow, cinch up and wife drives the boat up the ramp and away from ramp. I take less time, due to practice I am sure, than most boaters, even many of those that powerload. Floating in on can be very quick and easy, and does not destroy the ramp for all others.

I have seen numerous bass boats powerload. Two men on board, idle up to dock and one hops out, boat driver backs out slightly and waits, other man backs down the ramp, boater powers on and truck driver pulls forward with the boater still in the boat. This is fast, for sure, but ruins the ramp for others as well as their next trip back. PLEASE understand that I am not blaming this on bass boats only. I fish too. It is just something I have seen numerous times. I see bowriders and cuddy's power load too.

[Dave R]

There are three ways to load a boat onto a trailer, two involve power but one is not "power loading". Idling on to the trailer is perfectly acceptable (John and Nancy tole me there was no problem with it) where power loading is not allowed and always faster than pulling the boat onto the trailer with lines, if done correctly.

I have always idled onto my trailer and winched up the last few feet. I don't tug the boat onto the trailer manually because lines only work under tension and a little cross wind at the wrong time can really screw up the process if the boat is being blown toward you. My boat is rather heavy too, so it would take forever.

[NH_boater]

Originally Posted by Dave R

There are three ways to load a boat onto a trailer, two involve power but one is not "power loading". Idling on to the trailer is perfectly acceptable (John and Nancy tole me there was no problem with it) where power loading is not allowed and always faster than pulling the boat onto the trailer with lines, if done correctly.

I have always idled onto my trailer and winched up the last few feet. I don't tug the boat onto the trailer manually because lines only work under tension and a little cross wind at the wrong time can really screw up the process if the boat is being blown toward you. My boat is rather heavy too, so it would take forever.

Dave, I did not mean to imply that idling onto the trailer was an issue. This is not power loading. Power loading is simply raising the RPM's and using force, not latent momentum to push the boat up and onto the trailer. I see guys going to what seems like 3-4K RPM's to force the boat up to the trailer stop and then simply hooking to the bow hook. As the do this, they are moving the bottom. forming a crater and subsequent mound behind it. Jon and Nancy also told me that idling on was fine, which I occasionally did in windy conditions. Agreed that this (idle on) is not the issue.

I also see folks power on because they clearly did not back their trailer in far enough and now they are lifting the bow up as they force the boat forward.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by NH_boater

Dave, I did not mean to imply that idling onto the trailer was an issue. This is not power loading. Power loading is simply raising the RPM's and using force, not latent momentum to push the boat up and onto the trailer. I see guys going to what seems like 3-4K RPM's to force the boat up to the trailer stop and then simply hooking to the bow hook. As the do this, they are moving the bottom. forming a crater and subsequent mound behind it. Jon and Nancy also told me that idling on was fine, which I occasionally did in windy conditions. Agreed that this (idle on) is not the issue.

I also see folks power on because they clearly did not back their trailer in far enough and now they are lifting the bow up as they force the boat forward.

I only wanted to distinguish because I've been yelled at for "power loading" when I was idling onto my trailer and figured some folks think it's the same thing... I always idle onto my trailer regardless of conditions, I'm quick about it, it's part of my routine and I like to have a steady routine for tasks like this, and I never have to worry about the boat getting away from me.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I only wanted to distinguish because I've been yelled at for "power loading" when I was idling onto my trailer and figured some folks think it's the same thing... I always idle onto my trailer regardless of conditions, I'm quick about it, it's part of my routine and I like to have a steady routine for tasks like this, and I never have to worry about the boat getting away from me.

Same here.
I back the trailer in and my wife IDLES the boat on 3-4mph. As soon as the bow is between the bunks of the trailer the engine is off and she trims up. We never push any water with the boat stationary. Crank the winch for a few seconds and pull out. If my trailer is wet for more than minute I would be surprised.

Not to point fingers but it seems bass boats and pontoons seem to power load the most. I think it's an outboard thing not really a boat type. Maybe us i/o guys don't want to grind up a prop on the ramp either. I think they are just clueless to the damage it does.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

Same here.
I think they are just clueless to the damage it does.

I only want to talk about this part of your post. I think this boils down to either ignorance, or cluelessness. There is a difference.

Ignorance to me means that the person knows enough not to do something, but does it anyway.

Cluelessness to me means that the person does not know not to do something. In other words, they were not educated.

Which brings me to my point. Where does one get an education on how to load/unload a boat at the ramp?
The answer is simple...there is no place. It is not discussed in the boater safety education course, and as far as I know, it is not discussed anywhere else. So how do they learn? Experience, and from the experiences of others who have been educated. That's how I learned.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I only want to talk about this part of your post. I think this boils down to either ignorance, or cluelessness. There is a difference.

Ignorance to me means that the person knows enough not to do something, but does it anyway.

Cluelessness to me means that the person does not know not to do something. In other words, they were not educated.

Which brings me to my point. Where does one get an education on how to load/unload a boat at the ramp?
The answer is simple...there is no place. It is not discussed in the boater safety education course, and as far as I know, it is not discussed anywhere else. So how do they learn? Experience, and from the experiences of others who have been educated. That's how I learned.

There should be a sign at the ramp that says "No Power Loading". Then there is no excuse. Is there a sign??

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

There should be a sign at the ramp that says "No Power Loading". Then there is no excuse. Is there a sign??

There was when the Downings owned it.

[NH_boater]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

There should be a sign at the ramp that says "No Power Loading". Then there is no excuse. Is there a sign??

Yes, there is a 'no power loading' sign.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I only want to talk about this part of your post. I think this boils down to either ignorance, or cluelessness. There is a difference.

Ignorance to me means that the person knows enough not to do something, but does it anyway.

Cluelessness to me means that the person does not know not to do something. In other words, they were not educated.

Which brings me to my point. Where does one get an education on how to load/unload a boat at the ramp?
The answer is simple...there is no place. It is not discussed in the boater safety education course, and as far as I know, it is not discussed anywhere else. So how do they learn? Experience, and from the experiences of others who have been educated. That's how I learned.

With those definitions I think it's cluelessness. I doubt the power loaders are bad people they just don't know what damage they can do. I am not sure where I learned that power loading was bad... I always just found it easiest to slide the boat on and winch the rest. I believe they do talk about power loading in the course though. I remeber seeing a drawing of the mound of sand behind the ramp.

If I see someone power loading I will say something to educate. You just don't always get the opportunity to talk though.

[LakeSnake]

The below taken from the online NH Boat Ed study guide.



"Do Not Power Load Your Boat
Propeller wash can erode the sediment just beyond the ramp surface, creating a large hole. The eroded sediment is deposited behind the propeller, creating a mound. Trailer tires can get stuck in these holes, and boats can run aground on the mound."

Nice picture below of end of ramp washed out and mound behind....


So being clueless is not an excuse - assuming you do have a nh boat license.

[NH_boater]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Which brings me to my point. Where does one get an education on how to load/unload a boat at the ramp?
The answer is simple...there is no place. It is not discussed in the boater safety education course, and as far as I know, it is not discussed anywhere else. So how do they learn? Experience, and from the experiences of others who have been educated. That's how I learned.

There are many, many sources of this information if someone cares to look. There are countless videos on youtube and the like on how to properly launch and retrieve. There are many websites with information on learning this craft. There are also numerous books, a few of which I own. Of course, there are also companies out there selling their expertise to make boating more enjoyable. Then there are the compulsory safety courses. Oh, and the signs that say no powerloading.

I think it safe to safe that there are numerous sources of education if someone wants to learn.

[NH_boater]

Chip, I used the term 'ignorant' in my original post. Ignorant means uninformed or uneducated. I did not mean that they knew better but did it anyway; this is where I used the term 'inconsiderate'.

[Lakesrider]

Originally Posted by NH_boater

I do not glide onto the trailer. I tie up, trailer backs down, walk the boat onto the trailer with a line on the stern and bow, cinch up and wife drives the boat up the ramp and away from ramp. I take less time, due to practice I am sure, than most boaters, even many of those that powerload. Floating in on can be very quick and easy, and does not destroy the ramp for all others.

Nice. I thought I was the only one.
I do it the same way. Have since my father taught me to load using ropes. The only time I may motor to the trailer is in a severe wind condition where I want to be on the boat should anything happen. And I have a 25 foot Monterey cruiser.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by NH_boater

.........

I have seen numerous bass boats powerload. Two men on board, idle up to dock and one hops out, boat driver backs out slightly and waits, other man backs down the ramp, boater powers on and truck driver pulls forward with the boater still in the boat. This is fast, for sure, but ruins the ramp for others as well as their next trip back. PLEASE understand that I am not blaming this on bass boats only. I fish too. It is just something I have seen numerous times. I see bowriders and cuddy's power load too.

I have noticed the same thing.

We all need to think about the future of the ramp or the free ramp could quickly become one less access place.

R2B

[LIforrelaxin]

While power loading is a problem. I think what the boating community is missing is the fact that what is really needed is better ramp infrastructure. And more education on the various ways trailers can be built.

Having boated all over the country, The Northeast has some of the worst access points. Ramps are constructed so that they aren't steep enough, to facility floating boats on and off of trailers. Or when they are shallow they are built as huge concrete blocks so that power loading is not a problem.
The last thing about ramps in other area's of the country is that they are huge some wide enough to allow 5-10 boats launch at once...

Here in the Northeast ramps are often shallow, and end short such that the trailer is no longer on the ramp but rather out on the lake bed.

Because many are only big enough for one boat people often feel rushed.

The other thing that people need to consider is that bunk trailers if you are constantly loading and unloading your boat aren't always the best option. Most manufacturers, offer them as std. equipment for trailer boats because they are cheap and easy to produce. A roller trailer really solves many of the problems, however often add to the cost of a boat, so most people stay with the standard bunk trailer.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The other thing that people need to consider is that bunk trailers if you are constantly loading and unloading your boat aren't always the best option. Most manufacturers, offer them as std. equipment for trailer boats because they are cheap and easy to produce. A roller trailer really solves many of the problems, however often add to the cost of a boat, so most people stay with the standard bunk trailer.

Back in 1999 when I bought my first Baja (212 Islander), our favorite salesman, Jim, at Channel Marine told me that Baja did not recommend roller trailers, they recommended bunk trailers for better support of the hull and less chance of deflection in the flat hull surfaces. My current boat is a 25 Outlaw and it also is on a bunk trailer, although this particular trailer manufacturer was not my first choice for a trailer. So far, so good, I've not had any problems with my current boat or the trailer it sits on. I do think I need to adjust the bunks inboard a little to get maximum contact between the trailer bunks and the hull.

I've never power-loaded either of my boats onto the trailer but I used to idle on until the hull made contact with the bunks when I was launching at Ames Farm; they were winched up from there. Since I've been launching/retrieving at WAM, it's float off and float on only since they have docks on either side of the ramp and it's a simple process to walk the boat off and back on.

[NoBozo]

In REAL Life..Baja has it right. Bunks are designed for Support Of The Hull ....to Retain the shape of the hull as much as possable over time. (Yes..bunks are cheaper.)

Rollers offer easier loading and launch..BUT.. Offer Hard Spots (Stress points) which..in the long run.. can be detrimental to the retention of hull shape ..particularly with performance boats. NB

[Dave R]

I've had a roller and two bunk trailers. I'll never own another roller. Bunks work great and do an excellent job of aligning the boat perfectly.

I will never own another trailer with surge brakes either. Electric brakes are vastly superior in my opinion.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Rollers offer easier loading and launch..BUT.. Offer Hard Spots (Stress points) which..in the long run.. can be detrimental to the retention of hull shape ..particularly with performance boats. NB

This is only true when not enough rollers are used...... I have plenty of experience with both roller trailers and bunk trailers... have owned both and used both... Both have their good point and bad points...

People that have issues, with roller trailers are not providing enough support, don't have the proper roller trailer... They also buy cheap trailers, and don't bother to customize them to the application...

Like wise I also see plenty of boats, on poorly designed bunk trailers that do more damage then the do good....

The idea that bunk trailer better supports a boat, then a properly designed roller boat trailer, is a total misconception...

After having customized a roller trailer to properly fit a boat, I can tell, you that I could load the boat, just a fast as someone with a bunk trailer, with out any alignment issues. And there where no issue with the hull not being supported.....

I have had many marina's give me the same song and dance about bunk trailers are better, and the bottom line, is they don't have the desire, time, or expertise, to properly fit a roller trailer....

I looked at replacing my current bunk trailer a few years ago, with a roller trailer and talked with a few marinas, and was told that they would order a trailer, and fit it to my boat to the best of their abilities, but wouldn't be able do do any customizing.... This was after talking with the trailer and boat manufactures, knowing what model trailer I wanted, and what modifications where need to properly support the boat. The boat manufacture, recommend adding addition rollers at the stern of the boat, to better support the weight. The Trailer manufacturer recommended ordering the standard trailer, and adding the extra rollers myself, or ask my marina to do it when the did the fit of the trailer to the boat.. As the cost of doing a custom order was substantially higher for the couple of customizations I needed.. But the dealer wouldn't take the time to modify the trailer....They told me they would order the extra parts, but didn't have someone with the right expertise to install them, and truly fit the boat to the trailer.

As I ended up not trailing the boat, as much as I anticipated, I opted not to get the new trailer... but the experience taught me a few things... 1st if you do your homework there is nothing wrong with a roller trailer (I already knew this, but my experiences confirmed this) 2nd -- fitting a roller trailer properly, takes time, and marinas don't like taking that time... 3rd if you talk to the boat manufacturer and the trailer manufacture, you can get the results you are looking for. Oh by the way, the trailer I was looking to order, was the same on the Boat Manufacturer orders when a roller trailer is requested by a marina...