Gas Stove Installation- WOW $$

CateP · 08-29-2012, 04:22 PM

I am purchasing a gas stove fireplace and am astounded by the labor costs for installation. Of the three distributors in the area, one cost $500, another $550 and yet another $675. That does not include materials, but it does include permits.

I am purchasing the stove from the distributor who charges $675. The installer called to set up a time and told me it would take about 2 hours to install the stove. Two hours! That's $337 per hour (not including travel time). WOW. Who do these guys think they are? Lawyers?

I'm wondering if there is an alternative installation option to this apparent rip off.

BroadHopper · 08-29-2012, 04:54 PM

Do you have natural gas or propane? Does the gas line exists where the stove is to be installed?

Gas lines are expensive, so be prepared to spend some money to install the line, otherwise connecting a stove to an existing gas line should not cost more than the installation.

If the stove has to be converted, I would look for the right stove or find a dual purpose stove.

I never heard of getting a permit to install a gas fireplace unless you are adding a chimney/flue.

Rusty · 08-29-2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

I am purchasing a gas stove fireplace and am astounded by the labor costs for installation. Of the three distributors in the area, one cost $500, another $550 and yet another $675. That does not include materials, but it does include permits.

I am purchasing the stove from the distributor who charges $675. The installer called to set up a time and told me it would take about 2 hours to install the stove. Two hours! That's $337 per hour (not including travel time). WOW. Who do these guys think they are? Lawyers?

I'm wondering if there is an alternative installation option to this apparent rip off.

Is this a vent free gas stove fireplace?

CateP · 08-29-2012, 05:49 PM

Propane stove. Vented to outer wall. The $675 cost does NOT include installing the gas line. I am having Eastern Propane do that.

Rusty · 08-29-2012, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

Propane stove. Vented to outer wall. The $675 cost does NOT include installing the gas line. I am having Eastern Propane do that.

Unfortunately if you can't do it yourself then the going labor rate is very high. About four years ago I put my gas stove in myself because most places wanted @ $500.00 to do it. It's really not that hard to do if you have basic carpentry skills. I'll bet you could do it yourself with some good instructions from the people who you purchase the piping from.

The direct vent piping material is also expensive.

fatlazyless · 08-29-2012, 07:27 PM

Here's a similar, recent experience of mine. Lamprey Septic of Moultonborough, after looking first hand at my septic pump holding tank, told me it would cost about $1500 to 1800 dollars to replace the tired, old septic pump and attached 2" diameter galvy pipe with 2" PVC right up to the 2" black polyvinylbutyl pipe within the holding tank.

Going to Gilford Lowe's; a new similar 1/2hp septic pump and float switch costs $277 and the 2" PVC pipe, pvc fittingss and polyvinylbutyl check valve about another $50 total

Yes, it is very true that the hired installer will bring with them their experience, expertise, and knowledge plus of course their labor, so it is all something to think about.

codeman671 · 08-29-2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

Propane stove. Vented to outer wall. The $675 cost does NOT include installing the gas line. I am having Eastern Propane do that.

So with no materials included, all they are doing is setting it in place, cutting a hole in the wall and hooking up a few pieces of pipe that snap together? No wonder you are upset.

Sunbeam lodge · 08-30-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

I am purchasing a gas stove fireplace and am astounded by the labor costs for installation. Of the three distributors in the area, one cost $500, another $550 and yet another $675. That does not include materials, but it does include permits.

I am purchasing the stove from the distributor who charges $675. The installer called to set up a time and told me it would take about 2 hours to install the stove. Two hours! That's $337 per hour (not including travel time). WOW. Who do these guys think they are? Lawyers?

I'm wondering if there is an alternative installation option to this apparent rip off.

And no state employment tax.

SAB1 · 09-04-2012, 04:44 PM

Like Rusty said, it is not hard to do if you know basic carpentry. The hardest thing to do is install the thimble. If you have a friend that knows any about carpentry he/she can cut that in in no time. The thimble is just a clamshell. I am not a carpenter but I had mine installed in under the 2 hours they quoted you. Just had to wait overnight for a little silicone to dry.

NoBozo · 09-04-2012, 07:29 PM

My Fuel Oil company has INCOMPETENT "Technicians". We buy oil from them AND a maintenance contract. The maintenance is around $230 a year. They come out once a year and Clean the furnace. EVERY time they come.....they have to come back 2-3 times afterward to get the furnace running ..Again.

We declined their Cleaning Service the last three years. (We still pay the service fee because it covers "unforeseen incidents" which might require equipment replacement..) The furnace just keeps chugging along without their "service".

NOW: They are calling every now and then to get us to let them come out and service the furnace..AND NOW.. they want to check our fuel tank for LEAKS. Scare..Scare..Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

BEWARE of Wolves looking for a new source of revinue....WE.. are NOW looking for a new oil service.

NB

ITD · 09-04-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My Fuel Oil company has INCOMPETENT "Technicians". We buy oil from them AND a maintenance contract. The maintenance is around $230 a year. They come out once a year and Clean the furnace. EVERY time they come.....they have to come back 2-3 times afterward to get the furnace running ..Again.

We declined their Cleaning Service the last three years. (We still pay the service fee because it covers "unforeseen incidents" which might require equipment replacement..) The furnace just keeps chugging along without their "service".

NOW: They are calling every now and then to get us to let them come out and service the furnace..AND NOW.. they want to check our fuel tank for LEAKS. Scare..Scare..Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

BEWARE of Wolves looking for a new source of revinue....WE.. are NOW looking for a new oil service.

NB

NB, an oil burner needs to be cleaned every year. Filters replaced (air and oil), nozzle replaced, electrodes cleaned and adjusted, heat exchanger cleaned of soot and inspected for cracks, combustion checked and adjusted. If you don't do this the furnace will eventually stop running, but more importantly as soot builds up the furnace becomes very inefficient wasting more oil each year. Find another company with good techs, not worth the added expense on oil or the potential safety issues that can arise as the unit plugs up with soot.

P-3 Guy · 09-04-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

BEWARE of Wolves looking for a new source of revinue....WE.. are NOW looking for a new oil service.

Yup, we experienced this several years ago. The fuel tank inspection is a prelude to a pitch for tank insurance. Just say no.

NoBozo · 09-05-2012, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

Yup, we experienced this several years ago. The fuel tank inspection is a prelude to a pitch for tank insurance. Just say no.

Thanks TMI. I had No Idea. Now it all makes sense. (Those Wascally Wepublicans)

NB

fatlazyless · 09-07-2012, 06:28 PM

Somewhat off-topic, but it concerns the installation of a non-vented Rinnai propane heater.

Is the installation of a non-vented propane heater allowed in a residential bedroom? Is this a state or local town, Town of Campton, NH, building code violation.

Some Rinnai propane heaters are direct vent which means they have thru-the-wall vent tubes or chimneys which bring in fresh air to support combustion, and expell the combustion fumes to the outside via an inner and outer tube(s) within the same chimney vent device.

Some other Rinnai propane heaters ar non-vented and do not have any vent to expell the combustion fumes to the outside. Are these legal for use in a bedroom? Can you smell any of the propane smell or combustion fumes in the heated air as you breath it in?

Does this come under the watchfull eye of the local fire dept or the local building code officer or what?

TheProfessor · 09-09-2012, 09:05 PM

Any plumber with gas certification can hook one up assuming you already have gas or propane.

These small wall units have no fumes.

The only issue of concern from anyone is that these units use up oxygen. Any use should be in a well ventilated room.

These wall units usually are around 10,000 BTU which is not much but are good to heat a room.

I have been using one for ove 15 years. No issues.

Obviously, any town can have rules and such for these.

DickR · 09-10-2012, 09:53 AM

In general, unvented heaters that burn any fuel are not a good idea. While the thing may well work in some circumstances some of the time, there are two fundamental issues with them. First, as has been noted, they do consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide, and proper ventilation of the room is a must. Depending on remembering to open a window or do something to ensure fresh air is risky. Further, there could be a tendency not to open a window in cold weather, when the need for heat is greatest. Even if there are safety devices and alarms that activate when the carbon monoxide level gets too high, burning a fuel within a room degrades air quality.

Second, an issue that is more important in a fairly tight house than in one that leaks air (and loses heat) badly, burning a fuel within the house introduces a lot of water vapor, which finds its way into the wall cavities and condenses, a condition that can lead to mold and rot.

Happy Gourmand · 09-10-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickR

In general, unvented heaters that burn any fuel are not a good idea. While the thing may well work in some circumstances some of the time, there are two fundamental issues with them. First, as has been noted, they do consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide, and proper ventilation of the room is a must. Depending on remembering to open a window or do something to ensure fresh air is risky. Further, there could be a tendency not to open a window in cold weather, when the need for heat is greatest. Even if there are safety devices and alarms that activate when the carbon monoxide level gets too high, burning a fuel within a room degrades air quality.

Second, an issue that is more important in a fairly tight house than in one that leaks air (and loses heat) badly, burning a fuel within the house introduces a lot of water vapor, which finds its way into the wall cavities and condenses, a condition that can lead to mold and rot.

Any of the reasons mentioned would be enough for me. I'll take mine vented, please.

tis · 09-10-2012, 01:46 PM

We have had one for years that is ventless. However, I have never been comfortable with no venting. We don't use it a lot, it is up over a garage.

fatlazyless · 09-10-2012, 08:59 PM

My situation involves a rental studio apartment that is upstairs over an unheated two car garage in Campton and the landlady has hired someone to install a propane heater with a seperate meter to replace the existing electric baseboard heat which ran off the one meter for her single family house without a sub-meter.

Can she legally install an unvented propane heater in a rental studio apartment like this or does the State of NH building code require it to be a vented heater in this situation?

Rinnai unvented heaters cost quite a bit less than a Rinnai vented propane heater and are less costly to install as well.

Rusty · 09-11-2012, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

My situation involves a rental studio apartment that is upstairs over an unheated two car garage in Campton and the landlady has hired someone to install a propane heater with a seperate meter to replace the existing electric baseboard heat which ran off the one meter for her single family house without a sub-meter.

Can she legally install an unvented propane heater in a rental studio apartment like this or does the State of NH building code require it to be a vented heater in this situation?

Rinnai unvented heaters cost quite a bit less than a Rinnai vented propane heater and are less costly to install as well.

For ventless heaters, NH goes by the the International Code Council (ICC). Look at section 621.2 Prohibited use. It clearly states that a ventless heater cannot be used as it's sole source of heat.

SECTION 621 (IFGC) UNVENTED ROOM HEATERS

621.1 General.

Unvented room heaters shall be tested in accordance with ANSI Z21.11.2 and shall be installed in accordance with the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer’s installation instructions. Unvented room heaters utilizing fuels other than fuel gas shall be regulated by the International Mechanical Code.

621.2 Prohibited use.

One or more unvented room heaters shall not be used as the sole source of comfort heating in a dwelling unit.

621.3 Input rating.

Unvented room heaters shall not have an input rating in excess of 40,000 Btu/h (11.7 Kw).

621.4 Prohibited locations.

Unvented room heaters shall not be installed within occupancies in Groups A, E and I. The location of unvented room heaters shall also comply with Section 303.3.

621.5 Room or space volume.

The aggregate input rating of all unvented appliances installed in a room or space shall not exceed 20 Btu/h per cubic foot (207 W/m3) of volume of such room or space. Where the room or space in which the equipment is installed is directly connected to another room or space by a doorway, archway or other opening of comparable size that cannot be closed, the volume of such adjacent room or space shall be permitted to be included in the calculations.

621.6 Oxygen-depletion safety system.

Unvented room heaters shall be equipped with an oxygen-depletion-sensitive safety shutoff system. The system shall shut off the gas supply to the main and pilot burners when the oxygen in the surrounding atmosphere is depleted to the percent concentration specified by the manufacturer, but not lower than 18 percent. The system shall not incorporate field adjustment means capable of changing the set point at which the system acts to shut off the gas supply to the room heater.

621.7 Unvented decorative room heaters.

An unvented decorative room heater shall not be installed in a factory-built fireplace unless the fireplace system has been specifically tested, listed and labeled for such use in accordance with UL 127.

621.7.1 Ventless firebox enclosures.

Ventless firebox enclosures used with unvented decorative room heaters shall be listed as complying with ANSI Z21.91.

fatlazyless · 09-11-2012, 12:02 PM

Thanks very much for this reply with the info as printed from a building code regulations guide.......and I plan to get a copy to the landlady......hopefully before she goes ahead with the installation of the unvented heater...and etcetera etcetera etcetera .....

It's understandable how property owners who rent out residential apartments are trying to cut their expenses....especially with the extremely high NH price for electricity....but probably nobody would want to live all winter in a small studio apartment where the only source of heat was an unvented propane heater.

I just recently got rid of a 6000-btu Rinnai unvented propane heater by selling it off on Craigslist. Purchased it about three years ago from Amerigas-Laconia for sale, very low price...$99. .....if I remember correct.....and I was able to sell it on Craigslist for $250 a couple weeks ago....reading the Rinnai owners manuel.....it said to keep a window open for a supply of oxygen while using it......it was installed in a sunroom....and the odor of combusted propane or something was definately present in the heated air .....so I never used it much at all.....and was happy to get rid of it.

Have to wonder if a Rinnai unvented propane heater would set off a carbon monoxide alarm, or a propane gas detector alarm?

Yes, I have two Rinnai direct vent propane heaters now in use for more than ten years which have always worked perfect, and never needed any service......but I was very happy to get rid of a small Rinnai non-vented heater by selling it off on Craigslist ...ugh....to some guy who is supposedly a professional propane heater installer.....goodbye and good riddance to that unvented propane heater!!! I can only hope that the unit I just sold on Craigslist is not destined to be the same unit that gets installed in the studio garage apartment about five towns over in Campton.... now, that would be very ironic ...

...!

BroadHopper · 09-11-2012, 12:56 PM

When I moved into the unit, the fireplace would smoke all the time. I had a mason check the flue and it was determined the flue was not built properly and it was dificult to start a draft. Also the location of the unit in respect to the surroundings is also bad. I ask the condo association if I can put in a gas stove which requires a stainless steel flue. The association refused my request. A number of other unit owners installed ventless gas logs and are happy. I had a ventless gas log set burning for years in the fireplace. I never had a problem. It is not my primary source of heat. It is used for aesthetics and to warm up the main room on a cold day.

fatlazyless · 09-11-2012, 05:20 PM

Since the ventless fireplace propane flaming log was set within an existing fireplace and chimney, even a chimney with poor draft, any minute hot fumes from combustion most likely just go up the chimney. Any fumes would be much warmer than the air already in the fireplace and chimney so they would rise up and travel up the chimney.

Unlike space heaters that are vented to the outside, unvented space heaters do not have a heat exchanger with the combusted propane getting exhausted to the outside; the heated warm air also contains any and all combusted propane residual fumes leftover from the burning of propane. The laws of physics still apply to all unvented space heaters, even ones made by Rinnai.

Rusty · 09-11-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I just recently got rid of a 6000-btu Rinnai unvented propane heater by selling it off on Craigslist. Purchased it about three years ago from Amerigas-Laconia for sale, very low price...$99. .....if I remember correct.....and I was able to sell it on Craigslist for $250 a couple weeks ago

6000 BTU Rinnai ventless heaters are still going for around $100-$110 today.

How did you sell your three year old heater for $250?

NoBozo · 09-11-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

6000 BTU Rinnai ventless heaters are still going for around $100-$110 today.

How did you sell your three year old heater for $250?

Rusty: I suggest that FLL is an Excellent Business Man. Buy LOW..Sell HIGH. YUP, That's it.

NB

fatlazyless · 09-11-2012, 08:28 PM

....ok.....I was asking four hundred dollars and the buyer had phoned me about three times because he was an installer and had to check with his client customer......and then just when he was due to show up.....he calls again and says he googled the item and found one on ebay for 250......so I lowered my price to 250...... And he bought it without even turning it on to see how it works....and as I recall Amerigas-Laconia had discontinued installing them and drastically reduced the selling price down to either 99 or 199 about three years ago. The user's manual says to open a window and how it is not for use in a bedroom ......there's a very noticeable odor of propane or some combusted smells
in the heated air flow.

ITD · 09-11-2012, 08:52 PM

Less you screwed that guy.

fatlazyless · 09-12-2012, 08:35 AM

No, I didn't because this Rinnai non-vented heater sold for something like a list price of $550 new, about three years ago, and it was in perfect, like-new condition, all hooked up and working, plus he was an experienced propane heater installer, and he was very happy to buy it for 250 so he could install it for someone else.

ITD · 09-12-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

No, I didn't because this Rinnai non-vented heater sold for something like a list price of $550 new, about three years ago, and it was in perfect, like-new condition, all hooked up and working, plus he was an experienced propane heater installer, and he was very happy to buy it for 250 so he could install it for someone else.

I don't know Less, sounds like two people screwed to me, you knew that new ones were being sold for 99 or 199 three years ago yet you sold it for 250. I mean I understand caveat emptor and all but what about the golden rule? Beyond that you didn't feel it was safe? I would have relegated it to the junk heap. I don't mean to dump on you, but just saying.

fatlazyless · 09-12-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

I don't know Less, sounds like two people screwed to me, you knew that new ones were being sold for 99 or 199 three years ago yet you sold it for 250. I mean I understand caveat emptor and all but what about the golden rule? Beyond that you didn't feel it was safe? I would have relegated it to the junk heap. I don't mean to dump on you, but just saying.

What happened is that Amerigas-Laconia had about three of these small Rinnai non-vented propane space heaters at drastically reduced prices and they said they would not install them. List price was $550, and I paid either 99 or 199, knowing there must be a reason why they were so cheap and when I asked why Amerigas was no longer installing them, was told they were not happy with them.

I recently sold it to an experienced installer, and the sale included the Rinnai owner's manual which instructs to keep a window open for the fresh air, and not to install it in a bedroom.

songkrai · 09-15-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

I am purchasing a gas stove fireplace and am astounded by the labor costs for installation. Of the three distributors in the area, one cost $500, another $550 and yet another $675. That does not include materials, but it does include permits.

I am purchasing the stove from the distributor who charges $675. The installer called to set up a time and told me it would take about 2 hours to install the stove. Two hours! That's $337 per hour (not including travel time). WOW. Who do these guys think they are? Lawyers?

I'm wondering if there is an alternative installation option to this apparent rip off.

Back to the original post.

What was the solution or end result of all of this?

fatlazyless · 09-16-2012, 08:26 PM

If you want to learn more about the carbon monoxide death of tennis champion, Vitas Gerulaitis, in 1994, then you should google " Gerulaitis Death Attributed to Short Pipe" for a May 25, 1995 newspaper article in the New York Times.

One night prior to Gerulaitis' death, a different tennis person slept in the same guest bedroom at the Long island home and supposedly avoided a similar problem with carbon monoxide because he slept with a window open.

With the Rinnai non-vented heater that I was able to unload on Craigslist-NH, the user manual instructed not to use it in a bedroom, and to keep a window open (presumably to support more complete combustion or something like that).

08-29-2012, 04:22 PM	#1
CateP Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 868 Thanks: 584 Thanked 540 Times in 210 Posts	Gas Stove Installation- WOW $$ I am purchasing a gas stove fireplace and am astounded by the labor costs for installation. Of the three distributors in the area, one cost $500, another $550 and yet another $675. That does not include materials, but it does include permits. I am purchasing the stove from the distributor who charges $675. The installer called to set up a time and told me it would take about 2 hours to install the stove. Two hours! That's $337 per hour (not including travel time). WOW. Who do these guys think they are? Lawyers? I'm wondering if there is an alternative installation option to this apparent rip off.

08-29-2012, 04:54 PM	#2
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,669 Thanks: 3,282 Thanked 1,132 Times in 814 Posts	Questions Do you have natural gas or propane? Does the gas line exists where the stove is to be installed? Gas lines are expensive, so be prepared to spend some money to install the line, otherwise connecting a stove to an existing gas line should not cost more than the installation. If the stove has to be converted, I would look for the right stove or find a dual purpose stove. I never heard of getting a permit to install a gas fireplace unless you are adding a chimney/flue. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

08-29-2012, 07:27 PM	#6
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	Here's a similar, recent experience of mine. Lamprey Septic of Moultonborough, after looking first hand at my septic pump holding tank, told me it would cost about $1500 to 1800 dollars to replace the tired, old septic pump and attached 2" diameter galvy pipe with 2" PVC right up to the 2" black polyvinylbutyl pipe within the holding tank. Going to Gilford Lowe's; a new similar 1/2hp septic pump and float switch costs $277 and the 2" PVC pipe, pvc fittingss and polyvinylbutyl check valve about another $50 total Yes, it is very true that the hired installer will bring with them their experience, expertise, and knowledge plus of course their labor, so it is all something to think about. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

09-04-2012, 07:29 PM	#10
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	A Slight Aside My Fuel Oil company has INCOMPETENT "Technicians". We buy oil from them AND a maintenance contract. The maintenance is around $230 a year. They come out once a year and Clean the furnace. EVERY time they come.....they have to come back 2-3 times afterward to get the furnace running ..Again. We declined their Cleaning Service the last three years. (We still pay the service fee because it covers "unforeseen incidents" which might require equipment replacement..) The furnace just keeps chugging along without their "service". NOW: They are calling every now and then to get us to let them come out and service the furnace..AND NOW.. they want to check our fuel tank for LEAKS. Scare..Scare..Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. BEWARE of Wolves looking for a new source of revinue....WE.. are NOW looking for a new oil service. NB

09-07-2012, 06:28 PM	#14
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	Somewhat off-topic, but it concerns the installation of a non-vented Rinnai propane heater. Is the installation of a non-vented propane heater allowed in a residential bedroom? Is this a state or local town, Town of Campton, NH, building code violation. Some Rinnai propane heaters are direct vent which means they have thru-the-wall vent tubes or chimneys which bring in fresh air to support combustion, and expell the combustion fumes to the outside via an inner and outer tube(s) within the same chimney vent device. Some other Rinnai propane heaters ar non-vented and do not have any vent to expell the combustion fumes to the outside. Are these legal for use in a bedroom? Can you smell any of the propane smell or combustion fumes in the heated air as you breath it in? Does this come under the watchfull eye of the local fire dept or the local building code officer or what? __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

08-29-2012, 05:49 PM	#4
CateP Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 868 Thanks: 584 Thanked 540 Times in 210 Posts	Propane stove. Vented to outer wall. The $675 cost does NOT include installing the gas line. I am having Eastern Propane do that.

09-04-2012, 04:44 PM	#9
SAB1 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Tuftonboro Posts: 1,276 Thanks: 196 Thanked 336 Times in 244 Posts	Like Rusty said, it is not hard to do if you know basic carpentry. The hardest thing to do is install the thimble. If you have a friend that knows any about carpentry he/she can cut that in in no time. The thimble is just a clamshell. I am not a carpenter but I had mine installed in under the 2 hours they quoted you. Just had to wait overnight for a little silicone to dry.

The Following User Says Thank You to ITD For This Useful Post:
NoBozo (09-05-2012)

09-09-2012, 09:05 PM	#15
TheProfessor Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,164 Thanks: 17 Thanked 357 Times in 214 Posts	Any plumber with gas certification can hook one up assuming you already have gas or propane. These small wall units have no fumes. The only issue of concern from anyone is that these units use up oxygen. Any use should be in a well ventilated room. These wall units usually are around 10,000 BTU which is not much but are good to heat a room. I have been using one for ove 15 years. No issues. Obviously, any town can have rules and such for these.

09-10-2012, 09:53 AM	#16
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 765 Thanks: 4 Thanked 260 Times in 172 Posts	In general, unvented heaters that burn any fuel are not a good idea. While the thing may well work in some circumstances some of the time, there are two fundamental issues with them. First, as has been noted, they do consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide, and proper ventilation of the room is a must. Depending on remembering to open a window or do something to ensure fresh air is risky. Further, there could be a tendency not to open a window in cold weather, when the need for heat is greatest. Even if there are safety devices and alarms that activate when the carbon monoxide level gets too high, burning a fuel within a room degrades air quality. Second, an issue that is more important in a fairly tight house than in one that leaks air (and loses heat) badly, burning a fuel within the house introduces a lot of water vapor, which finds its way into the wall cavities and condenses, a condition that can lead to mold and rot.

09-10-2012, 01:46 PM	#18
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,948 Thanks: 795 Thanked 1,493 Times in 1,040 Posts	We have had one for years that is ventless. However, I have never been comfortable with no venting. We don't use it a lot, it is up over a garage.

09-10-2012, 08:59 PM	#19
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	My situation involves a rental studio apartment that is upstairs over an unheated two car garage in Campton and the landlady has hired someone to install a propane heater with a seperate meter to replace the existing electric baseboard heat which ran off the one meter for her single family house without a sub-meter. Can she legally install an unvented propane heater in a rental studio apartment like this or does the State of NH building code require it to be a vented heater in this situation? Rinnai unvented heaters cost quite a bit less than a Rinnai vented propane heater and are less costly to install as well. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

The Following User Says Thank You to Rusty For This Useful Post:
fatlazyless (09-11-2012)

09-11-2012, 12:02 PM	#21
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	Thanks very much for this reply with the info as printed from a building code regulations guide.......and I plan to get a copy to the landlady......hopefully before she goes ahead with the installation of the unvented heater...and etcetera etcetera etcetera ..... It's understandable how property owners who rent out residential apartments are trying to cut their expenses....especially with the extremely high NH price for electricity....but probably nobody would want to live all winter in a small studio apartment where the only source of heat was an unvented propane heater. I just recently got rid of a 6000-btu Rinnai unvented propane heater by selling it off on Craigslist. Purchased it about three years ago from Amerigas-Laconia for sale, very low price...$99. .....if I remember correct.....and I was able to sell it on Craigslist for $250 a couple weeks ago....reading the Rinnai owners manuel.....it said to keep a window open for a supply of oxygen while using it......it was installed in a sunroom....and the odor of combusted propane or something was definately present in the heated air .....so I never used it much at all.....and was happy to get rid of it. Have to wonder if a Rinnai unvented propane heater would set off a carbon monoxide alarm, or a propane gas detector alarm? Yes, I have two Rinnai direct vent propane heaters now in use for more than ten years which have always worked perfect, and never needed any service......but I was very happy to get rid of a small Rinnai non-vented heater by selling it off on Craigslist ...ugh....to some guy who is supposedly a professional propane heater installer.....goodbye and good riddance to that unvented propane heater!!! I can only hope that the unit I just sold on Craigslist is not destined to be the same unit that gets installed in the studio garage apartment about five towns over in Campton.... now, that would be very ironic ... ...! __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

09-11-2012, 12:56 PM	#22
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,669 Thanks: 3,282 Thanked 1,132 Times in 814 Posts	Fireplace conversion When I moved into the unit, the fireplace would smoke all the time. I had a mason check the flue and it was determined the flue was not built properly and it was dificult to start a draft. Also the location of the unit in respect to the surroundings is also bad. I ask the condo association if I can put in a gas stove which requires a stainless steel flue. The association refused my request. A number of other unit owners installed ventless gas logs and are happy. I had a ventless gas log set burning for years in the fireplace. I never had a problem. It is not my primary source of heat. It is used for aesthetics and to warm up the main room on a cold day. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

09-11-2012, 05:20 PM	#23
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	Since the ventless fireplace propane flaming log was set within an existing fireplace and chimney, even a chimney with poor draft, any minute hot fumes from combustion most likely just go up the chimney. Any fumes would be much warmer than the air already in the fireplace and chimney so they would rise up and travel up the chimney. Unlike space heaters that are vented to the outside, unvented space heaters do not have a heat exchanger with the combusted propane getting exhausted to the outside; the heated warm air also contains any and all combusted propane residual fumes leftover from the burning of propane. The laws of physics still apply to all unvented space heaters, even ones made by Rinnai. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

The Following User Says Thank You to NoBozo For This Useful Post:
Rusty (09-11-2012)

09-11-2012, 08:28 PM	#26
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	....ok.....I was asking four hundred dollars and the buyer had phoned me about three times because he was an installer and had to check with his client customer......and then just when he was due to show up.....he calls again and says he googled the item and found one on ebay for 250......so I lowered my price to 250...... And he bought it without even turning it on to see how it works....and as I recall Amerigas-Laconia had discontinued installing them and drastically reduced the selling price down to either 99 or 199 about three years ago. The user's manual says to open a window and how it is not for use in a bedroom ......there's a very noticeable odor of propane or some combusted smells in the heated air flow. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

09-11-2012, 08:52 PM	#27
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,953 Thanks: 484 Thanked 703 Times in 393 Posts	Less you screwed that guy.

09-12-2012, 08:35 AM	#28
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	No, I didn't because this Rinnai non-vented heater sold for something like a list price of $550 new, about three years ago, and it was in perfect, like-new condition, all hooked up and working, plus he was an experienced propane heater installer, and he was very happy to buy it for 250 so he could install it for someone else. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

09-16-2012, 08:26 PM	#32
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9,174 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,103 Times in 812 Posts	If you want to learn more about the carbon monoxide death of tennis champion, Vitas Gerulaitis, in 1994, then you should google " Gerulaitis Death Attributed to Short Pipe" for a May 25, 1995 newspaper article in the New York Times. One night prior to Gerulaitis' death, a different tennis person slept in the same guest bedroom at the Long island home and supposedly avoided a similar problem with carbon monoxide because he slept with a window open. With the Rinnai non-vented heater that I was able to unload on Craigslist-NH, the user manual instructed not to use it in a bedroom, and to keep a window open (presumably to support more complete combustion or something like that). __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!