More adventures with woodstoves!
 

OK, I know I've worn out my welcome a hundred times over, but I have another heating mystery.

I had the pipe on my woodstove replaced and the door latch fixed three days ago. Latch now closes well and door gasket is tight to stove. Furnace cement was used on the pipe joints. A damper was installed in the pipe over my strong objections and against the manufacturer's clear instructions not to install a damper.

The cement smoked visibly and had a strong odor for about an hour; then that subsided. However, I'm getting a smell of smoke in the house that wasn't present at any point prior to this. Right now I have windows open because the indoor air quality is so poor. I have a headache every day. This cannot be good for one's health.

I believe the smell is wood smoke rather than the furnace cement. There is no visible smoke coming from the joints.

Yes, the damper is in the horizontal position. Still, I'm wondering if a damper installed on a stove that's not supposed to have one could have a harmful effect, even when it's fully open. Below is a photo of the setup.

Any idea what could be causing this poor indoor air? The only other clue I have is that to create the holes for the damper rod, the guy used a 22 pistol. Hence the rod is bent slightly.

Attachment 17905

Wow
 

"The only other clue I have is that to create the holes for the damper rod, the guy used a 22 pistol."

Did the guy really do this?? If he did I would trust none of his other work...

To try and help you out...if its wood you are smelling, most likely a leak around the thimble. I also see blackness on your brick just above the 12:00 o'clock position of your thimble ring. Leak could be coming from there...

Wow...still cant get over the 22 logic!

Dan

I would not take a chance with any of this I would just use your thermostat and bite the bullet {no pun intended} and pay for the oil.

Bullet Hole Experiments at Work...What Fun!
 

I've called the fire department to locate smoke coming out of my house. :o

Maybe give them a call?

While experimenting with holes in sheet metal, I found a 22 pistol will make 32 caliber holes! :eek:

Yes, seriously, that happened. Not on my property though, believe me. He did it at his house after I told him firmly that I didn't want a damper. He arrived with the assembled pipe with damper as a fait accompli.

Looking at the discoloration on the wall, it seems like what you would expect after 50 years of a woodstove in that location. However, the thimble ring is not attached in any way. Is it purely decorative?

Below are photos of where the pipe enters the wall. Is it possible there's not enough cement on the left side? Also, in the first photo there does appear to be a space in the joint below one of the screws.

Attachment 17908

Attachment 17907

I had a similar thought this morning and did some math. I had the thought of selling all my wood and using the proceeds to buy oil. Right now oil is twice as expensive as wood (for the cost to heat my house), so that idea is out.

If you have a level, I'd check that horizontal stove pipe. If the bubble doesn't head toward the brick wall, that's part of the problem.

For whatever it's worth, all my stove pipe is dry fit and there aren't any leaks to speak of. Don't quite know what to make of the cement products being used in you application

Like above I’ve never used pipe cement. How are you intending to take this apart for cleaning? I think I would call or stop by your local stove shop and ask them for some help.

You're smart! I was wondering the same thing about the slope of the pipe. It's supposed to rise 1/4" per foot. I'll see if I have a level.

I called a stove shop in Meredith. The gentleman said the pipes don't need any cement around the joints or at the wall, because the smoke rises. He said, "You could shoot the pipe full of holes and the smoke would go up the chimney." You make a good point about cleaning.

I'm sure your oil company has a budget plan where you make a monthly payment based on todays prices and your past usage, It's worth a phone call rather than a smoke problem or a fire. Frugal is good safe is better.

So much here doesn't make sense. I've been running a wood stove all winter for decades. Never had cement on the joints. If the chimney is drafting correctly, shouldn't be needed. In fact I recently discovered that my pipe had partially pulled out of the chimney opening (yes, immediately fixed) and yet it still drafted fine and didn't put any smoke into the house.

Yes, the thimble where the pipe enters the chimney is decorative only.

Finally, I don't get the quote above. If you told him you didn't want it, why did he do it? Perhaps more directly, why did you let him. It serves no purpose in your setup.

I'd recommend you hire someone who knows what they are doing to rip it all out, start with new pipe (it's not that expensive) and get it installed correctly.

Not good.
 

Hindsight being 20-20, I really wish you had walked away from the installer who insisted on installing the damper. Not only is it contrary to the manufacturer's instructions, it probably was an unnecessary increase in installation costs. Lesson learned, I guess.

Dave

Does this shop do inspections? The more that I read, the more I get nervous you’re going to end up with a house fire. You definitely need to get someone who knows what he is doing and not try to use your woodstove until it is fixed.

Back in the late 1970s we bought a Victorian home in Old Town, Maine. it was built in the 1870s and it had no insulation and the curtains would actually move when it was windy outside. After going through the first winter and spending a fortune on oil, we decided we needed to put in a woodstove. We bought a nice Vermont Castings stove, had a nice brick hearth built to put it on and it was done perfectly. But no one thought about cleaning the chimney.

My husband is a huge New York Jets fan. The only way he could ever hear a Jets game was to go out in the car and sit in the driveway and listen to the static on the radio. He was in the car one day and a woman knocked on his window. He was really enjoying his game and rolled the window down to see what she wanted. She said she was sorry to interrupt him but that our chimney was on fire!

What happened next was like a scene from the Keystone Cops. The fire station was only one block away and we heard them coming up the street and drove right by. My husband was out chasing them. When they got to the house they realized they didn’t have any more flares because they used them on the last chimney fire and they forgot to re-order. The only thing they could do to keep the whole house from burning down was shoot water from the hose down the chimney but there was a possibility that the whole thing would crack. We had no choice. They put the fire out and the chimney was fine. We used that woodstove for all the years we were there. One year, we actually burned five cords of wood. But we learned the lesson,
Don’t mess with fire!

Hold a match or candle flame near the damper hole. The draft should pull the tip of the flame into the hole.

Alan

I checked this this morning with a level. The pitch appears correct. Thanks for that reminder, Poor Richard.

I just want to remind folks that there's no surprise in this situation if you've read my past posts. I know y'all are aghast, but there are an awful lot of senior citizens living alone who can't afford to get "good" home maintenance, so we make do with what we have and who we can afford. I know I appear inept, but you would be surprised at how much I DO do on my property, for a woman of my age. I make well-reasoned decisions after gathering a lot of information. Also, we are in a period of economic distress that must be impacting millions of home owners. So again, it's not surprising that people turn to less-than-ideal home maintenance solutions. I don't neglect situations that pose a risk to the house. In the present case, there is no danger of fire, no flames shooting out of the flue pipe (that happened once on the furnace, though:eek:), so calmez-vous, s'il vous plaît. As always, I greatly appreciate all the good information I've gotten from the wise and skilled people here.

Do you mean the hole in the pipe for the damper rod? I did that. The flame flickered but I wouldn't say it was pulled toward the hold.

Oversized Pipe, Smoke, and Occam's Razor...
 

1) Our Irish "Trinity III" woodstove is nearly twice as big, yet our six-inch pipe has worked quite well for 25 years. Your undetermined starting stovepipe is pictured adapting to an even larger pipe behind the bricks. (Bricks which I hope, are not of the hollow variety). :eek2:

2) Only because I had a free damper, did I install one. It was omitted during a recent retrofit--with no gain of function detected--ever. I'd remove yours.

3) Our local Florida fire department used some kind of portable smoke/heat device to determine my smoke issue. The smoke was caused by sparks from a grinding operation which entered a seam into the roof's interior. (I'd soaked the area, but some combustion was still evident).

4) My concern would be that NH's Fire Departments may refer fines for code violations, which tend to become increasingly restrictive. (Canada's even more so).

BTW, should a fire start burning the creosote inside the pipe, the "fix" is to shut all the airflow into the stove. (Similar to closing the hood on an automobile's engine fire).

Yes that hole in the pipe. If the stove was up to temp then it looks like a poor draft situation. That could be your primary issue with poor stove performance.

If the stove was cold then you may need to heat the flue at startup to get a good draft going and prevent initial smoke blow back. Prior to lighting the kindling place crumbled paper on top, light and keep door cracked to get a good draft going then light the kindling.

Alan

I'd like to add to this, a suggestion to pour a bunch of water directly onto the coals then shut the air vents (leave the flue damper open).

You'll have a mess of ash, wet coals and water to deal with after but the shot of steam may prevent the chimney from burning up completely.

My belief is that the interior pollution you are suffering has nothing to do with your stove or its installation, the problem lies with your chimney design and performance. The chimney and its performance is the key player for successful wood burning and too often ignored!
Is the top of your flue at least a couple of feet higher than anything with in ten feet? Are you sharing the flue with any other heating appliances? (strickly illegal, but still I favor having wood stoves on tow different levels hooked into the same flue). And lastly if your home has a large rectangular opening to accommodate all of your chimney needs, consider installing dedicated chimney piping for each need and maybe even having a poured superflue put into placeto service your woodstove.

Air was fine until the flue pipe was changed.

That cement will give off an odor for a while, so will the stove if it's new, or for the first few burns of the season. If the chimney was a problem your smoke/ co alarm would be sounding. I suspect you are a little sensitive as this seems new to you. I bet the local fire department would come and check the install for you if you called them on the business line. The damper really doesn't matter if it's there or not. In fact, in the spring and summer it's probably a good thing, you can close it to help keep that creosote smell out of the house.

Learning with Three Woodstoves in Three Different Houses...
 

'Hoping that's six-inch pipe you've got there. :eek2:

To avoid a 90° turn in the pipe, I installed two 45° pipe sections for my antique parlor stove. (Cast in 1873--isinglass windows--burns wood and coal).

The draw (draft) is so good, the stove's front door can be left open even when starting the fire with less-than-perfect kindling. No smoke inside.

I once spray-painted my third stove. It took three "burns" to get the odor out. :o

I’ll bite, when is the last time the chimney was cleaned? We’re there issues prior to replacing the pipe?

Here’s a dumb question…Your picture shows the damper KNOB in the correct open position. Do you in fact know that your guy with the 22 and splice cement installed the damper correctly on the damper rod? Maybe the damper is 90 degrees off and is actually closed….

Just a thought…

Dan

No issues with smoke prior to replacing the pipe. The chimney has only been cleaned three times in 28 years. Every time the guy said there was almost nothing to clean. I had not used the stove in years prior to last March. They guy with the 22 is supposed to clean it.

I believe it's correct. We tested it and it was operating properly.

UPDATE: I think there may have been an improvement in the smoke smell, so maybe the problem was the cement after all?

Not at all a silly question. Was thinking that myself. Cleaned and has anyone verified it has a clear path. Birds nest, dead squirrel, stuck robbers!


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Maybe Santa!

I always check the chimney with a mirror before lighting the first fire of the season.

HAHA! Where is Santa when you need him?

Ayuh, ayuh.

Maybe take a look at a Vacu-Stack chimney cap review ..... an unusual chimney cap device that supposedly will increase the chimney draft without using an electric fan.

Using the magical power of thermo-dynamic wind resistance energy it will power up the draft draw as it sits atop the chimney, or something!

Comes in many sizes to fit every chimney ever made since chimneys were first invented .... www.woodlanddirect.com/high-wind-chimney-caps/

Like, when nothing else works ..... maybe worth a try? ..... the VACU-STACK chimney cap ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiNduld4jhY ..... as seen on TV .... beep-beep-beep ...... :eek:!

I can't take the smoke in my house any longer. It's affecting my breathing. What kind of person would I call to take a look at this and figure out what the problem is?

To reiterate, I had NO problems with indoor air quality prior to the pipe replacement.

Fire and Stone has a good reputation. Please keep us all updated


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Yes, please keep us posted. You do not need to be breathing that bad air any longer.

D.i.Y.
 

Your already marginal draft seems to have been further reduced with the addition of the unwanted damper--and especially the guesswork holes. If that section is a standard length of stovepipe, I'd replace it, and save the expense of a repairman.

Hopefully, your last repairman didn't install an ash screen at the top!

It would be nice to discover where it leaks.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree with you. She needs to get someone in there who knows what they are doing. She doesn’t need any more suggestions about how to do it herself. She can’t breathe!

I agree with this, it's been quite a while of putting up with this, get her fixed.

Shut the woodstove down, turn up the thermostat and run the hot water heater 1 hour a day. Problem solved, time to be safe.

I missed this thread as I had Tapatalk on "participated" rather than "timeline," but:

1. Smoke is different than smell.
2. Smells don't affect breathing.
3. We've said before that your stove is either not functioning properly because of its draft/seal or quality of wood, which means you've had a problem all along.
4. This is absolutely a "penny-wise, pound-foolish" scenario because you're now running not only into more service costs but the very real potential of health issues.

Call a professional and spend the money to get that stove working properly and safely

OR

Shut it down and figure out a way to pay the few extra dollars (since there's already a cost involved).

It may be time to seek out a part-time job or heating assistance, but something has to change.

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think, I agree with everything you say here except the fact that she should maybe get a part-time job? Heating assistance is a good idea, but I don’t think they give you that much.

You do realize she is a senior citizen? She is also living with disabilities.

I know that she's capable enough to process firewood

and

Making decisions to save money that might kill her.

I stand by my suggestions.

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I'm just wondering why the installer went from what appears to be six to eight at the elbow, and then ran such a long horizontal relative to the vertical?

Couldn't find the appropriate 6-8 increaser?

I would expect to see that at the wall, then the 6 elbow, and then the short vertical connection to the stove collar.

Actual smoke in the house, rather than residual should set of the smoke detectors.

Thinkxingu, you've gone from mansplaining to social worker. Please keep the discussion technical (woodstoves), not personal. I work, I'm not disabled. I'm old enough to make my own decisions. You used to funny, Thinkxingu. Not so much anymore.

Mansplaining? If by that you mean "answering questions you had no idea about" then, yes—guilty as charged.

As for social worker, you're literally cutting things so thin that you're risking frozen pipes, Legionnaire's Disease, smoke inhalation/poisoning, etc. etc.

Finally, let's not forget why your last electric bill was $55. You're welcome.

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CO and Smoke detectors
 

Please make sure you have working carbon monoxide detectors and smoke detectors on every level of your home. Some fire departments will provide and install them. Good luck with your stove

Hopefully you can answer questions about things like woodstoves without demeaning me publicly. You seem to fall apart when I don't cave in to your pressure to do things your way. If that causes you distress, there are obvious solutions.

I'm sorry if I'm being demeaning, but that was not my intent—as mentioned above and in other threads by myself and others, much of what you're doing is no joke.

Good luck.

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Great minds think alike. I came to the same conclusion and have done all three. I will continue working to solve these problems, but these are the best interim solutions.

Best get off your high horse before you break your neck.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's clearly time to go our separate ways.

Please stop messaging me asking for more info, and we'll put this to bed.

Again, good luck.

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My last messages to you were about my $50 refer-a-friend reward from Direct Energy that mistakenly ended up in your account. Since you think I'm poor, it would be good if you didn't keep that credit for yourself. Just call Direct Energy and let them know about the error and they will correct it. I gave you all the information you need to identify the payment.

We went through this via IM and I shared the conversation I had with Direct Energy where they said they don't give out personal info. I had a few friends sign up as well, so there's no way to tell on my end whose credit I'm getting.

If your friend wants to work with Direct Energy since it's his/her account, that's on him/her, but you've decided where this friendship has gone so I'm done. [emoji3577]

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Direct Energy doesn't need to give out any information. You simply need to tell them that Person X was my referral, not yours. Direct Energy already told me that you were credited for Person X.

When I asked Direct Energy who my credit was for they told me they couldn't tell me and that it was up to the person who referred to confirm the right person got it.

I spent over an hour waiting online and on that chat, and I shared the process with you a couple weeks back through PMs. I'm not doing anything else. Your friend made the mistake, it's up to her/him to deal with it.

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I made the mistake, not my friend, because I didn't understand the referral system. Have fun with my $50! You have no shame.

Why are you making such a big deal about this? If you know it was her referral, just give her the $50.

Honestly sailin why don’t you take this offline…this “thing” you have with Think is really not what this forum is about… stop poking the bear and just give it a rest… take a deep breath and just simply MOVE ON….

Now, let’s get back to our regularly scheduled program!

Happy New Year Everyone!

Dan

Thinkxingu commanded me to not message him. He made untrue public statements about me which I have corrected. If a forum member cheats you, I hope you will share that information.

Listen, I know Think, he is a great guy…whatever happened between you and Think doesn’t matter “HERE” and diminishes the forum and its purpose. Just relax and realize this is just an Internet forum. Stop trying to get the last word or whatever point your trying to make as it just does not matter…

Have a great, happy and safe New Year!

Dan

I had a long response here, but I've deleted it and will let my history of posts on this forum dictate my reputation.

Sorry for the mess, all.

What's that you say? You don't like being maligned publicly, you "great guy"? Gosh, neither do other people. I don't appreciate you portraying me as unemployed and needing welfare. I've been employed in the same professional trade for 25 years.

Apparently you don't have a lot of insight into your conduct. Where do you get this assumption that you're smarter than everyone else and hence you have a right to judge people's personal decisions and tell them what to do?? You've been here a long time and you have a lot of posts? Does that give you certain privileges, like disrespecting people or cheating them? You know very well that my friend used your referral code. Direct Energy confirmed it to me and I told you. Therefore you received $50 from my referral, in addition to the $50 you made off me joining.

I've had FOUR people I know for sure use my referral code, not including Sailin or her friend. Until now, I've only received ONE, with the promise of only TWO actually fulfilled.

This is because the program, as Sailin knows, was on hold for most of the last few months.

There is no confirmation that the code was Sailin's friend, I cannot get confirmation whose signups I might get credit for, AND there are far more friend signups who have used my referral code than I have received credits for.

Attached is a screenshot of my chat with Direct Energy for anyone who wishes to doubt my story.

Again: I stand by my posts and reputation here.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c257af2716.jpg

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It matters if someone solicits a forum member with a PM inviting them to do something involving money, and then exploits that person.

Exploits?!
I. Saved. You. A. Lot. Of. Money.

I will not be responding any more. As I said above, good luck.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...88bfd319dc.jpg

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Sure, what I said in the post that you pasted was true. As you can see, I thanked you publicly and privately. That doesn't give you the right to keep what is not rightfully yours. That's exploitation. Now that you know the date that my friend used your code, there's no more denying the truth. I can even tell you your code number.