Fighting Proposed Rafting Restrictions
 

Recently a group of homeowners on Ossipee lake has sent a letter to the Department of Safety to propose rafting restrictions at a popular sandbar. Does anyone have experience or suggestions on how to fight this? Any suggestions would be helpful.

👎 on rafting
 

Don’t fight it....embrace it! Think about keeping the water you swim in pristine.
Ask the property owners on Braun Bay how wonderful rafting is.

Mini-Dive
 

Coming soon to your hometown! :rolleye1::eek:

So since when has it been bestowed upon shore front owners to determine what is the best course of action to keep the water in a certain area so called "pristine"?

It is amazing how many think just because they own property on the lake they own it too and thus can control how it is used and in some cases access to it.

Not for nothing but nobody that owns property in the vicinity of Braun Bay was forced to buy in there.

A Reminder...
 

Note to self:

Never buy Lake Winnipesaukee waterfront property in Winter. :idea:

Someone better care about polluting behavior. If not the rafters, let it be property owners. I don't care who it is looking out for a cleaner environment. Hundreds of people peeing in a small bay is not a good thing for property and non-property owners...It's not good for the lake and yes, I DO think shoreline property owners have more of a vested interest in keeping the Lake pristine than the occasional visitor...No?

When a shore front owner confronts people who are not directly in front of their property, it’s an issue. My late husband and I were confronted by a shore front owner. We were not in front of their property. The property we were in front of was being developed. We were 200 feet offshore, there were no other boats, and we were not blasting music. He was an entitled hole pure and simple. So I wouldn’t give a free reign to shore front owners ever. Definitely put me on the “it’s public property” side. The more shore front owners try to claim the lake for themselves, the less sympathetic I am.

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In 2019 The Dive was allowed by the Marine Patrol to go spuds down into the sand bar areas at both Braun bay and west Alton. In 2020 with the corona virus pandemic and the state's restrictions on bar & restaurant businesses The Dive was not allowed to go to these sand bar areas.

In 2021 it seems plausible the effects of the corona virus pandemic will continue to influence the state's decision on not allowing the public congregation of rafting boats that brings a number of boaters together to one area in the lake because it will cause public harm.

One can only hope that any new regulations put in place because of the effects of the Corona virus are written as temporary regulations, not permanent laws.

We have enough regulations already.

True. Winnipesaukee is over-regulated with the exception of Squam Lake. No wonder Dunleavy said his crew spends more time appeasing property owners than actually enforcing the boating laws!

I don't think it's quite right/fair to base views of off extreme jerks, who are relatively rare. One boat, 200' from shore, and not even directly in front of that person's house? He falls into the extreme jerk category.

But let's say is was 6 boats rafting for hours 50' directly in front of your house (that's 10' off your dock). Perhaps this is different?

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Waterfront property owners have Riparian Rights and common law rights to the waters adjacent to their property. This is a complex legal subject. The often claimed idea that everyone owns the lake equally, is however, simply not true.

Riparian Rights
 

A discussion of riparian rights may be found at https://www4.des.state.nh.us/blogs/l...Hampshire3.pdf

Guess we need then to petition to close every public beach on the lake, but not just the lake ANY public beach.

Property owners may have a vested interest in caring for the lake and as one myself I am certainly cognizant of behaviors that are detrimental to the lake however it is the state that has ultimate jurisdiction not me.

Furthermore in regards to "riparian rights" and I quote

"...The New Hampshire Supreme Court has held that riparian property-owners have rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally on certain areas of the water. The right to “use and occupy the waters adjacent to their shore for a variety of recreational purposes” is an
incidental property right associated with ownership of riparian property. Riparian property owners may “wharf out” to access the water, but they may not unreasonably interfere with the public’s use of the water. Such riparian rights, however, “are always subject to the paramount right of the State to control them reasonably in the interests of navigation, water storage and classification, health and other public purposes...."

Way I read this is pretty darn simple, property owners do have some inherent rights to ASK to put in a dock as to access their private property subject to the determination of the state's approval who acts as a steward on behalf of the public who ultimately governs the waterway. The problem is to many who buy waterfront think they own the lake and THAT is not true.

The operative term in all these discussions should be "reasonable". While there are some property owners who are unfriendly jerks, the regulatory pushes we see are almost always due to some sort of over the top unreasonable behavior.

I don't think we've seen specifics on the Ossipee situation on the Forum. Maybe we should before we opine on what's right?

Sorry Buddy ....... riparian rights are for land bordering a river, while littoral rights are for land bordering a lake. ...... :eek:

Less ...

Is that just your opinion, or do you have something to back it up.

"Riparian right, in property law, doctrine pertaining to properties adjacent to a waterway that (a) governs the use of surface water and (b) gives all owners of land contiguous to streams, lakes, and ponds equal rights to the water, whether the right is exercised or not. "Encyclopedia Britanica

Anyway you are proving my point. Waterfront property owners have more rights to the water than non property owners.

...... that Veronica had some great littoral rights!
 

Ok, ....... good reply ..... and that's got to be the first time the Encyclopedia Britanica has been referenced in this entire 20-years of Winnipesaukee Forum.

However, thumbing through my old World Book Encyclopedia, bound in a bright red cover, it very clearly says that "Riparian rights are those rights associated with river dwellers, while littoral rights are those rights associated with lake dwellers, or "laker's."

"Laker's: ........ you know, like Veronica Lake, Jughead, and Archie, and Betty ..... except only Veronica was a lake dweller who possessed those littoral rights ..... wherever she went ...... and she let you know it!

Feel free to read up on the topic...
 

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/stat...documents.html

In reading through the list it appears the Commission needs the new dock rules from Wetlands...

Perfectly said, if all parties were "reasonable" we would not have most of these conflicts.

Can you tell us what the proposed restrictions are?

I think even if you completely banned rafting, the Braun Bay situation would not change much. Its much bigger than rafting.

Personally I have ZERO desire to tie up to another boat, no matter who it is, I want my boat separate and not grinding against any other boat.

But I really dont see that as the key problem of perceived over population and perceived bad behavior on Winnipesaukee. I say perceived as clearly many dont think this is a problem.

From my perspective, there are just way too many people buying boats and using them on Winnipesaukee, and way too many dont think there is anything wrong with playing loud music and being really loud on the water, its why they go there, to party hard. And their perspective is, why wouldn't you want to raft and play loud music and be rowdy, it what the lake is meant for.

So we have very conflicting interests at work, rafting being the smallest factor in all this, in my opinion.

Other restrictions may play a bigger role, pro or con.

The Dive in Braun Bay
 

Respectfully, I will correct the portion of your statement that The Dive was prohibited from going to Braun Bay. The Dive was permitted to operate anywhere on the lake as it had been since its arrival. As for restrictions due to COVID, I cannot speak to the impact of state imposed measures on their business practices. Where they chose to operate on the lake was not regulated by the state outside of existing boating laws.

Safe Boating!!

Tim Dunleavy
Captain, Marine Patrol

Pristine already sailed
 

Braun Bay and Weirs Beach are open cesspools on busy days and probably take several days to flush out after. The lake can make you sick as easily as make you happy, been there. A loon family of 4 eats 900 pounds of fish over a summer (Maine Audubon), how much poop is that? 400 pounds maybe? Canada geese poop 2 pounds a day each. Poop carries microorganisms. The Weirs Channel is like a toilet flushing. The only way Winnipesaukee could ever approach pristine would be to take human activity away for a period of time. Not ever going to happen. It takes one contaminated drop of water on top of a cold can of beer to make a person sick. The strongest statement against rafting is to prevent the concentration of human activity and all it entails in one area for prolonged periods of time. Noise and other forms of pollution are equally valid. It's so much easier to address potential problems before they become established normal activities.

WOW, I can be harsh, but this even puts me to shame. I guess we should either put a fence around Winnipesaukee, or just expect to die if we come into contact with its water ???

Too many people !!!

So far on this thread shorefront owners are being described as selfish millionaires who think they own the lake and arrogant jerks that confront innocent boaters that stray too close to shore. I believe that is far from the truth
My lot was purchased for $1,500 back in the 40's
Over the years a cottage was built and expanded not as a vacation home but as a primary residence before it passed to us from my mom. She was an RN and far from being a millionaire. There are many others on my road that are also year round residents.
We have never confronted or been rude to anyone rafting near our beach in spite of some pretty inconsiderate behavior.
We have blueberry bushes near our beach and people often wade right up to pick them. Never really had issues with trash or loud music except in the winter with bobhouse shims and debris from fires washing up on our beach in the spring.
Every now and then a rafter with young children will allow them to play in the shallow water just a few feet from our shore but we don't mind if we're not using the beach at the time.
We've had bass boaters casting almost at our feet when we're on the dock which I find a little disrespectful of our privacy as well as an occasional boater peeing off the back of the boat as if no one on the shore could see them.
It's akin to living in a residential neighborhood and someone camping out on your lawn or urinating in plain sight of other homes.
Just saying that shore owners would just like a little consideration and respect for privacy.....we don't think we own the lake

As FlyingScot said a few posts back, "reasonable" if the key word.

Having visited Winnipesaukee since 1963, I have found most of the longtime residents and older visitors to be generally more cordial and respectful to each other, and too often newer residents who did in fact pay millions for their property and new to Winnipesauke day boaters to all be a bit less respectful to everyone, but thats a very broad brush and there are no absolutes. This just what is see in my limited travels.

Unfortunately it doesnt take too many outliers to sour the atmosphere for everyone.

A little kindness, a little respect, a little consideration, a little understanding, and a little forgiveness goes an awful long way. But when anyone is being clearly and intentionally disrespectful and inconsiderate then they deserve to be called out on it and get an earful. Even then there are ways to engage more successfully than hitting someone in the head with a bat (just kidding,,,) and unfortunately there will always be abusers who cannot be reasoned with,,,

Sorry, lots of words, and not much of use, just personal observations, thoughts and beliefs.

And though I have never been a land owner on the lake, I have thoroughly enjoyed it just as much as if I lived there, and I try to treat it and everyone I meet there as if it were my home.

Your experiences and opinions may differ,,,

I think if everyone enjoying the lake would adopt the " do unto others" attitude, things might be a lot different. We are very fortunate to call Mark Island home for 7 or 8 months out of the year. No " millions " involved, just careful spending and many, many years of hard work. I see lots of folks fishing near my docks, and most times I'll go down and chat with them. It's not often we get to enjoy the fruits of out labor, but if we have the chance to enjoy our beach, I want to listen to my music, not someone else's. I want to look at Bear Island and all the boats going by, not the back end of 6 boats rafting. We have not had an issue with rafters, as it's nicer to anchor off Bear for them with the late afternoon sun. If I was strictly a boater and not a homeowner, I think I'd ask myself how I'd feel if the roles were reversed...would I want someone rafting in front of my place? I'm thinking most would answer the same way. It's a big lake, and there's many places one could go to hang out and enjoy the day without taking enjoyment away from others. It's not at all about depriving anyone from anything, just common courtesy and respect.

We are in the age of "don't tell me what to do, I have a gun and I know my rights". :rolleye1:

Well said! :cheers:

And while we dont do fishing on Winnipesaukee, we also dont intentionally curl huge wakes or play loud music or raft in front of peoples homes, but I always offer up happy wave at a home owner as we pass and or stop and say hello if we are in a no wake zone and close to someones dock, so who knows maybe someday we will pass by and give you toot on the horn or stop and ask for directions and we hope as in the past we will always be met by smiling and happy and friendly helpful people. :D

ATB - enough from me on this thread.

Not just a fence, we need a bubble over it! Didn’t you read the part about those damn loons and geese crapping in the lake!? God only knows what the output of those unmentioned ducks are! We are running afoul of the fowl!

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That's me...smiling and happy![emoji6] Maybe I'll even invite you to stop in for a drink!

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What about home owners with their perfectly manicured lawns that seep nitrates into the lake?

Great point, they should not. It's best to use no fertilizer near the lake. But if you "need" it--look at the three number code on the bag, and make sure the middle number, for phosphorous, is "0"

Wow sorry I didn’t mean to set off such a firestorm. They are dealing to add the area to the list of prohibited areas for rafting. I will say this year was very busy, but I don’t think there were any real problems with safety or incidents.

As I cruise around, I don't think there are as many of those lawns as there used to be. More and more people are paying attention to "best management" and should be recognized accordingly.
NHLAKES has a program called "LakeSmart" relative to lake friendly landscaping. I hope more and more over the next couple of years, shorefront owners will see their certification as a source of pride and as a marketing tool (Realtors, note, please). Instead of grass, Blueberry sod! Better for filtration and the geese don't like it. Mostly green most of the year instead of that dead grass look. And no mowing or fertilizing.

I have heard that on Squam Lake they will not even allow cutting back brush along the shoreline to improve the view from your property. It must remain pristine.

Seems extreme, the planet is here to use, maybe not abuse, but to be enjoyed.

Pictures Please ;-)
 

BTW Ossipeejetboater, you be a new jet boater or an old jet boater?

Always interested in whats happening in jet boat tech, but LOVE to see old classic jet boats! :D

I have a newer Jet, but grew up with Eliminators and Checkmates.

Fight rafting
 

Since no one has actually answered your original request, go to Dept of Safety, Bureau of Hearings. Read the final order for Hebron Bay on Newfound, a petition to restrict no rafting was denied. That may give you some ideas on how to fight the petition on Ossipee, what they are looking for.

Magic carpet ride
 

1977 tahiti, panther jet. Old school

Sorry, but you are wrong - Fake News like the election was stolen
 

Riparian rights only means you cannot be stopped from being allowed to use the water in front of your land for Dock's and other things like moorings, etc. It does not mean that other people cannot use the water directly in front someone's land. No one owns the water and everyone has a right to use it. I am a waterfront owner and welcome anyone who wants to boat, fish, swim or relax in front of my house. Learn the facts before you post something. Also, the election wasn't stolen :)

Lakefront property owners have "Littoral Rights" in NH. Case law states "littoral owners have rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally." See page 5 of attached Supreme Court Case "Lakeside Lodge v. Town of New London" for reference.

The shoreline protection act is the same everywhere.

True, but the law specifically recognizes the fact that Towns are allowed to have stricter rules and some do in fact choose to have them.

I bet that is a lot of fun on the mornings where the water is like glass.

Unwelcome News...
 

Politics isn't welcomed here. "Fake News" and "stolen" are trigger-words.

To determine just how quickly your safety has become compromised, I suggest a brief tour of Sky News-Australia videos. :eek2:

Read the comments. :eek:

Unless it is a no rafting zone and in that case you cannot "relax" within 150' of shore.

Having fought various regulations as part of a group on Winnipesaukee, my first suggestion is to organize a group of people against these restrictions. The government listens better to a group with a solidified argument as opposed to several individual arguments.

Second, understand what the petitioners arguments are for the restrictions,, and figure out how to diplomatically argue against them...

Third find politicians that understand your arguments against the petition, and invite them out with you to the sandbar so they get some first hand experience.

Fourth be ready for battle, often time petitioners in cases like this have deep pockets, and stop at nothing to get what they want.

Fifth, be ready to loose.... In the battles I have been involved in common sense and logic doesn't prevail, emotions do, and those that can create the most emotion around the issue will win.... The state understand the revenue that shore front Taxes create, they chose to do things that ensure that stream of revenue doesn't get upset.

Braun bay pee... what about The leaking septic tanks and the "tons" of lawn fertilizer thst gets indirectly run into the lake every year from lake side homes and the algae it causes =lots damage to the lake.