Stand-on and give-way in crossing
 

Yesterday, I was traveling east-south-east between Governor's Island and Stonedam Island at about 26 MPH in my motor boat. I was on a collision course with a motor boat traveling south west toward the channel between Governor's Island and Eagle Island (coming from the Bear Island direction) at a similar speed. The other boat was off my port bow, so mine was the stand-on vessel. I maintained course and speed as required. The other vessel did the same despite the fact that there was plenty of time and space to change his course a few degrees to west and end the collision course early and easily. Many seconds passed with no change is speed or course by the other boat and just as I was getting ready to take evasive action, the other vessel slowed down and dropped off-plane with about 200 feet separation. I was thinking "that's not how I would have handled it, but OK, he did what he had to do be legal and safe". The other operator then flung his hands up in disgust that was obviously aimed toward me as though I'd done something wrong.

With the requirement that all boat operators have a boating certificate in place for the past few years in NH, it's amazing to see that there are some people that don't seem to understand the very basics. It ain't rocket surgery.

The Summer has begun ......


.

And you're surprised about this? :confused:

Cpt Boneheads
 

Dave;

Unfortunately, you'll find that this little rule is the one that is broken most often. Search 'Captain Bonehead' on this forum and you'll find many posts along this line. Treat everyone you meet on the lake as if they've no clue - chances are they don't.

Captain Bonehead is back
 

On Sunday, in Moultonboro heading north near Suissevale beach -just coming out of what we consider a marked passage - there was a kayak on our right (on Suissevale) side - and we (and the boat in front of us) are both going headway speed to ensure kayakers don't get bowled over by the wash. The area broadens out a bit here - and the moron driving a pontoon boat behind us, passes us on the left - no more than 30 feet from our boat. I, of course, start screaming at the pontoon boat. I had my camera in my hand and took picture of the pontoon boat. The woman on the pontoon boat waved at me! What dangerous lunatics.

"rocket surgery?" Never heard of that one before.

They do it on land and on water. I wonder how it is in the air? Speeding that is.

It's more of a self-solving problem in the air. Go too fast, or too slow, and the whole defying-gravity thing stops working.

When I'm on my boat, I'm never in a hurry to get anywhere (unless I'm trying to beat a thunderstorm, but that's another story). As such, I try to avoid any and all situations that would cause any anxiety or conflict...i just want to relax and enjoy.
I had a friend on my boat 2 weekends ago who told me he was considering getting his own pontoon boat and asked me what I considered to be the primary and most important rules of the road while boating. I've posted these rules before, I will post them again. I live by these rules.

1. I never, ever have the right of way, I will gladly give way to any other boat or boater no matter how we may be converging.
2. When in doubt, refer to rule # 1.

Stay happy, and safe.

I would add to that

3, Always remember Capt. Bonehead can just as easily sneak up from behind as he can from the front and side. Always scan 360 deg to stay safe.

rocket surgery....
 

.....it's a cross between rocket science and brain surgery....:laugh:

When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so.

Now don't start getting all Legal !!

Sanity & self preservation prevails .... I TOTALLY Agree with Gourmand (can't bring myself to say Phantom :D )

Legal is for when you are explaining why the bonehead is sitting in the middle of the Witches.



.

Honestly, I feel like doing that just encourages people to operate negligently.

If I'm the stand-on vessel, I stand-on until it's clearly putting myself/boat/passengers at risk by doing so. I'll try to signal the other operator in some way if it looks like they are currently boating sans-clue. At the same time, I don't get worked up about little stuff.

This really not true in NH waters. Read Chapter 270 D2. A boat needs to keep out of the way of a boat on it's starboard and allow the other boat to maintain.

Plus this rule sums up the intent:

V. If, when vessels are approaching each other, either vessel fails to understand the course or intention of the other from any cause, such vessel or vessels shall immediately slow to a speed barely sufficient for steerage until the vessels have safely passed each other. If it appears the danger of collision is imminent both vessels shall stop or reverse and not proceed until such danger has been averted.

This is the key law in 270 D2: "III When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed."

One would only use part V if part III does not work, in other words, part V is the " unless you can't safely do so" part of my statement: "When you are operating the stand-on vessel, you are legally obligated to maintain course and speed unless you can't safely do so."; part III would be the first half of the statement.

Also, there was absolutely no ambiguity about my course or intention. It was quite obvious.

So what part of the law says that the operator of the stand-on vessel is legally obligated to maintain course and speed?

"shall keep" is a requirement, "allow" is a requirement, you can be cited for this as the boat with someone to starboard. There are no words forcing the boat on the starboard side to do anything. He is allowed to keep course and speed, he is not legally obliged, at least in NH law.

I was posting this in response to your belief that stopping to let another boat pass, when you are not obliged to give way is somehow illegal. It's really silly to believe this. If you have any doubt about their course and speed, you can stop and let them pass. You should always have some doubt.

If I see a crossing boat, I'm the privileged boat, he turns to go behind me, I can speed up to increase the distance. He turns to go in front of me, I can slow down to increase the distance. Its really silly to think that I as the privileged boat, cannot adjust my course or speed to improve a crossing.

If this is right, and I don't think it is, my preference is to not be DEAD right.
See my rule # 2. It was made for situations like this.

The "can't safely do so part" is key. No one should cause an accident.

I believe the primary rule on the water comes down to "avoid a collision". The other rules are to help accomplish the primary rule. The intent of the stand-on rule is to keep that vessel on a steady predictable course so that the other vessel can take action to avoid it. If both boats are attempting avoidance it is possible that their actions could cancel each other out and the collision could still be possible.

Given that the other operator is very possibly ignorant of the rules, the primary rule of collision avoidance by dropping to minimal speed takes precedence. I have had to do this several times a year because I have no clue what the other operator is doing. And... once in a while I have a brain skip and do something stupid myself. I try not to make it a habit and afterward I usually realize that I was the dope.

It's good that a collision was avoided and amusing that the clueless person was annoyed that you knew the rules and stuck to them.

Right, Left, Port, Starboard, Give way, I agree with jeffk. it's all designed to help avoid collision. But, it's for captains, not morons. There are still too many morons on the lake. Are you reading this cappy morons? Hire somebody to pilot your expensive boats! Gawd, things were never this bad years ago.

It still amazes me how many operators do not know or ignore this simple rule.

I always thought some simple signage at launch ramps explaining some of the basic rules would go a long way.

"If it becomes apparent that the actions taken (or not taken) by the give-way vessel are dangerous or insufficient, the stand-on vessel must act to avoid collision." I had to refer to Phantom Gormand's rule 2 at least 3 times on Sunday. Just another weekend at the lake!

Whenever I'm faced with this situation, I give an indication of direction change by spinning my steering wheel 180 degrees away from the oncoming boat, then immediately back to where it started, this doesnt change the direction of my boat, but gives a visual "nod" if you will to the oncoming boat that I'm heading in another direction. Most of the time the other boater will react by changing course in the opposite direction. If this doesnt work I'll change direction, even if I have the right of way.
You can hang on the rules all you want, but your assuming that the other guy knows what he's doing. The final rule is to take any measure possible to avoid a collision, or you could wind up dead right.

My observations
 

Good Morning
Have been reading this post and am quite amused ..This situation that Dave R brought forth has happened to me many times over the past several years and there is no rhyme or reason for such things,,I have been almost cut to pieces too many times and have come to the conclusion that there are alot of inexperienced and rude boaters that are out there that just don't follow the rules..That being said those of use that live by the code are put into UN-deserved and precarious situations that compromise the safety of all involved..
My best advise is to always navigate in a defensive posture especially on weekends. I try really hard to avoid these boneheads out there but at times it is difficult. Fortunately I am in a position to do most of my boating during the week when there are considerably less boaters and the water is much more manageable..
Its too bad that it has to be that way but.....
Be safe out there Dave even though you are in the right the other guy just doesn't get it!!

The problem with this is that while you think you have sent a clear signal to the other boat of your intentions, if I was in the other boat I might think you were a drunk or inattentive driver. There is no agreed upon interpretation of the "nod". That means that no one can be sure of what you intend.

If I stick to the agreed upon rules as much as I can I can figure that at least some will know how it should work. If it becomes clear they do not, I can take whatever action I need to avoid a collision.

One key factor
 

All this assumes the other boat sees you at all. The same people who are texting and driving cars are texting (or worse) and "piloting" boats. They run into islands, what makes you think they won't run into you? BTW, the islands have the right of way, too.

That being said, the right of way rule is designed to eliminate the problem of both boats making a correction and potentially making the problem worse. In the end, you do what you have to do.....unless you're an island, then stand-on.

Just want to be clear. I have never advocated maintaining course and speed if it means risk of collision. During my outing on Sunday, there was never any risk of collision. The term "collision course" is not meant to imply risk, it just means that two objects will occupy the same space at some point if at least one does not change course or speed. If you are moving on a lake, you are ALWAYS on a collision course with something since the boundaries are finite.

When mine is the give-way boat, I bet the pilot of the stand-on vessel rarely knows we were ever on a collision course. As the give-way, I endeavor to make small course adjustments very early so that the collision course is prevented long before it's even apparent to most people. If another boat is on a constant bearing (relative to you) with a decreasing range, you are on a collision course. You can easily see this with miles of separation of you know what you are looking for. As the give-way, simply adjust course a few degrees to starboard and assuming the stand on boat maintains course and speed, the relative bearing on the stand on boat will begin to decrease as range decreases. When that happens, there's no collision course.

It doesn't really matter what the rules are, if you can see an accicent about to happen. Just stop and let the bonehead go his way.

I don't have a boat but the same things happen on the road.

What happened to the fun?
 

Boating used to be fun, but just like everything else, the fun seems to be a thing of the past. More rules, more regulations more laws and all it did was produce more BONEHEADS. Crazy.

The "nod " is only a tool in the tool box, its not meant to be a final course of action.
Just like someone running a read light while you have a green, you cant always stick to the rules. You ultimately are required to avoid collision.

Wow....

The COLREGS and subsequently most of the NH Boating rules were written long before runabouts... they were designed for large slow lumbering ships that were difficult to maneuver and took along time to stop or change course.

On the lake in while driving a recreational boat the stand on or give way should really only come into play when overtaking or when being overtaken. This was discussed in an earlier thread.

The boats we all drive on the lake are small relatively fast and highly maneuverable. With that being said, usually a minor course or speed correction avoids the whole stand on/give way issue/150' rule issue. There is no reason for runabouts to ever be in danger of collision, and boat vs boat collisions are pretty rare here in NH. I really credit the 150' rule for this. Even though the 150' distance is subjectively argued.... if a boat is what I estimate to be 70 ft away from me I don't worry...

My advice.... keep your head on a swivel at all times. When in doubt of the other guys intentions change your course or speed.... assume he doesn't see you or recognize the possibility of a collision. If you are overtaking someone, swing as wide as possible, in case they don't see you or the abruptly change course. When being overtaken... hold your course and speed until they have passed.

The #1 rule: YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO AVOID A COLLISION. Doesn't matter who has the Right of Way.


Woodsy

Perhaps it has to do with the popularity of boating and of this lake? The "old swimming hole" is lots of fun when there are only a few there. No rules either. But if lots of people start showing up, soon you have someone jumping on top of someone else and they get hurt. Rules start springing up. Then you get those who ignore the new rules. They probably don't realize why the rules are needed because they "just are out to have a good time".

There are now a lot of small, fast, and highly maneuverable boats (jet skis) around that add to the chaos. Anyone can afford one. Invulnerable young folks can't be bothered to learn the rules or follow them. Too many people that have learned, sometimes forcibly, that drinking and driving is NOT OK think that drinking and boating is an essential combination. The most important rule, IMO, is extremely simple and common sense: If you are close to anything or anyone, you have to slow down to headway speed. Yet, people are ignorant of it or simply do not care. It is constantly violated. I know that it sure ruins my fun when someone goes by me, even at 20 MPH, when they are too close.

And if you think a quickie review that allows you to get your certificate is going to make a significant impression on most people, forget it. Learn quickly, forget quickly. It amazes me that we require driving classes, hands on experience, and a written and road test to get an auto license. But for a operating a boat, a FAR more difficult task because of the free form nature of the environment, no practical experience is required or tested.

The rules get even messier when you hit traffic. At some of the popular "choke points", a lot of boats are converging from many directions. You may be the stand-on to the guy crossing from your left, and the give-way for the guy crossing from your right.

It actually happened to me near where Dave's incident occurred. I was going North along Governor's Island towards Meredith, and encountered the "freeway" between Bear Island and Eagle Island. I stopped for the westbound traffic, the eastbound traffic stopped for me and waved me on. I couldn't proceed, he was confused.

If you want a challenge .... and think because you are LEGAL that your safe ...

Then try the area my wife & I call the "crossroads" (perhaps the busiest spot on the Lake)

- The boating path between Weirs channel to Eagle Isl. where it intersects with Governor's Bridge to Meredith traffic.

Try that on a sunny Saturday afternoon !!!


as our cottage looks out onto that area it always presents entertainment and an occasional shout of "DID YOU SEE THAT !"


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I avoid that spot unless I am going, or have gone, under the bridge. I also cannot recall the last time I passed between Eagle Island and Governor's Island and have no idea why people do unless they never intend to exceed headway speed. IMO, it's much less stressful to go around the other side of Eagle Island and you can stay at a nice and efficient planing speed most of the time. Plus you get the added entertainment of watching people obliviously cruise over the rocky bits, up close.

I'm going to hang a nice blaze orange sign off the port side of the boat saying "GIVE WAY" and a "STAND ON" sign on the starboard
Oh wait.. What if they don't know what that means.
I'll change that to "Please Turn" and "Keep Going"

They can't know what it means, as they don't know how to read....

Maybe a big red X and a big green arrow.....:eek:

My #1 rule: Always assume the other guy is a moron.

Unfortunately, I am right quite often. :(

That's my rule too. I try to communicate with the other boat by adjusting course a bit to show where I am going. If they respond, great, we pass without drama. If they do not, I slightly alter my course or speed to miss them and we pass without drama.
There really is plenty of time to communucate and react on the water. You just have to pay attention a little bit.

Amazing are the boats that are clearly on a collision course and clearly the give-way vessel, and never even see you approaching. Some 'captains' simply do not keep watch (except on their phones, passengers, gauges or anything but other vessels). Extra bonus points when they take a sip of their beer as they motor by, obliviously.

You have to speak in a language they understand on the starboard you need :)
and on the port you need WTF

Now you're going to have people putting signs and symbols on random sides of the boat since they don't know the difference between the two.

Still Got'em...
 

I've noticed in the wakes thrown in our recent flat-calm waters, that the Winnipesaukee Belle and a couple of construction barges "weave" a path across the lake. You could be the "stand-on" boat one minute, and have to change course in the next moment.

:confused:

So we still have large slow lumbering ships that are difficult to maneuver and take a long time to stop or change course. They both have flat-bottom hulls and could be "dead-ahead" for many minutes.

:eek2:

Capt. Bonehead at Work
 

Just another weekender on the lake:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYsdUgEgJrY

I took the boating course MANY years ago and actually don't even boat anymore. I'd bet anything 7 out of 10 boaters have no idea who the "stand down" boat should be, I have no clue either. You folks are making a lot of assumptions here. I drive a car daily doesn't mean I know by heart every little law concerning the operation of one.....Do you??? (Most of you probably need to be careful before you answer that question!)

I would say that "stand on" and "give way" knowledge is (or should be) to boating what traffic lights or solid/dashed lines are to driving. It's not an obscure topic by any means, and in many cases it's a factor that comes up essentially anytime there is another boat around you.

Yeah, it's far from obscure, it's the 2nd most important rule to follow (the most important being don't have a collision with anything regardless of who is stand-on or give-way).

It seems to me that traffic lights and solid/dashed lines suffer the same limitations of stupid, inconsiderate drivers.:):)

That wasn't the analogy I was making. Stand on/give way rights are something that boaters should at least KNOW as the most primitive basic knowledge. Much like driving laws, fundamental concepts will be ignored at will all too often, but that is a separate issue from knowing the rules exist in the first place.

Ignorance is no excuse for such an elementary concept.

I would consider 'stand on' and 'give way' the water equivalents of the red and green traffic lights on our roads. If you are driving and do not understand the red or green traffic lights, you have no business on the roads (no matter how long ago you took a driving test).

Anyone piloting a boat in NH should have taken the required courses, and even if they did not have to, it is their responsibility as the boat operator to understand these basic rules for the safety of others. It would take less than a minute for most adults to learn this very basic rule if they cared to learn.

7 out of 10 may ignore them, but I think that ratio is much smaller. The problem, IMO, is not ignorance but an attitude of self-importance and self-centeredness.

Of course you are correct...my family says I am not very funny and should give up trying...but I always hope.

LOL.

(and some useless text)

I think the ratio is like 5 out of 100 that don't follow this rule. The majority of boat operators I cross paths with seem to know what to do and do it. I will say though that many slow down to give way because they didn't react early enough. I hate wasting gas like that...

IMO, the problem is so rare now that when it does occur, it really stands out now. 10 years ago, it was quite a bit worse.

I completely disagree. I think the boaters in the past 10 years have completely
Lost the ability to follow the rules.

I agree with you Chaselady. I think in the last ten years boat drivers have gotten worse, not just on the stand on but all rules.

OK I guess I need to "stand down" (punn intended) on this topic. Like I said I have no idea what boat is supposed to and also didn't know it's as basic as a red/green light is to driving. I will however tend to disagree about it's simplicity. I'd (almost) guarantee if you stood at a public launch site and asked 100 random boaters of all ages a MINIMUM of 40% would not know and no I'm not about to try it :D

Just for !@#$ kicks I'm going to ask my kid tonight, he took the course last year.

In fact, it's exactly like driving. Obviously you won't tend to see the lights on a boat during the day, but they are there.

If you are approaching another boat and you see a green bow light, you have the right of way. If you see a red bow light, you are the give-way vessel.

Simple guide...
 

The way I remember it is the fact that your piloting your boat from the right side (except center consoles, of course) and, you can see other boats better on your side of the boat, so you need to give way to them.

The boat on your "RIGHT" has the "RIGHT" of way. Very simple to remember!

"But I had the right of way!"
 

Famous last words.

I have to agree that while the regs are quite specific, too many of the boaters out there these days are either Captain Boneheads or just totally effin' clueless. Sometimes they're one in the same. I err on the side of caution when dealing with these 'people'.

On weekends is when we see them the most, which is why most of my boating is during the week, particularly after work. (I find an hour out on the lake after work is just as calming as a couple of beers, but without the bad side effects. My wife says she can always tell when I've just come off the lake: I'm always calm, cool, and laid back.)

That's the ticket I like that one...

"Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day
Who died Preserving His Right of Way.

He was Right, Dead Right, as he sailed along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"

quoted by Eric Hiscock in "Cruising Under Sail", Oxford University Press, 1st edn, 1950.


(Lifted from another forum....)

you know which side of the road to drive on and what to do at a red traffic light". This is basic boating stuff (maybe not the proper name of each vessel, but certainly the concept of who has the right of way).

And what to do at a rotary?

Yes, I do, but most people don't! The answer: When two people arrive at the same time, the one on the right has the right of way.

Most people don't know these things, which they encounter every day in their car. And you expect everyone to know what to do out on the water, where they operate (at best) once a week during a few weeks of the summer?? :laugh:

Maybe in the UK
 

This is a puzzling answer. The 2 vehicles will be entering at different points in the rotary. They both can enter the same time if no other vehicle is approaching. Since we use a rotary in the US in a counterclockwise rotation, you would yield to any vehicle approaching from the left. Who would be looking to your right for traffic in a rotary?

I trust you were not saying that when two people meet in a rotary that the one on the right has the ROW. Of course, this is exactly opposite of how a rotary works here in the US. The only exceptions are the screwy intersections shaped like rotarys where the yield signs give ROW to traffic entering over traffic in the rotary. This is how the Alton rotary was before they finally fixed it, and like a few others are like the one in Dublin, NH. These backwards rotarys are an ideal recipe for accidents.

In a rotary, traffic in has ROW over traffic entering. You wording seems backwards to me.

Actually that is not true, in a rotary in New England, the vehicle in the rotary has the right of way while the vehicle trying to enter has to yield. This is usually indicated by yield signs or even stop signs for entering traffic. Stopping in the rotary to allow cars to enter generally just screws everything up.

I thought the same thing about the "backwards rotarys". And then I moved to the Netherlands for a couple years. The traffic rule is that any car on the right has the ROW (coming in from a rotary or even a side street), unless there were little painted triangles (or a stop sign) on the road indicating they had to yield. I was very surprised at how well it worked. But I digress.

The point about knowledge of who has the ROW in the US is a good one, butI doubt that both drivers would continue driving, knowing a crash was imminent. And if there was a crash, I'm sure they would both be cited.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to discuss auto traffic laws here.

But yes, traffic in the rotary has the right of way. This is primary.

But if you and another car approach the rotary at the same time, the one on the right has the right of way to enter the rotary first. With larger rotarys this is not very important, but on smaller rotarys (rotaries?), it can make all the difference in the world.

Edited to add:
Perhaps this is why people in NH don't know this, as NH doesn't educate people about it:
http://www.nh.gov/dot/org/projectdev...ochure2008.pdf

Perhaps I'm remembering the 'when arriving at the rotary at the same time, the driver on the right has the right of way' rule from my driver education classes from about 35 years ago, or perhaps it's from the general rule about approaching any intersection at the same time as another driver?

You are remembering the rule of when cars arrive at a multiple stop intersection. In that case the vehicle on the right has the right of way.

In a rotary if two vehicles arrive at the same time from different entrances... they both enter (if safe to do so, i.e. no other traffic in the rotary) and they go about their business. I have no idea why the size of the rotary would make a difference? You either have space to enter or you don't! And stop using your directional in a rotary, we all know you are going to exit to the right!

You haven't been in some small rotarys. :) Come by Derry sometime! :eek:

Back to talking about boating . . .

Directional usage is a good idea in a rotary. It lets the people waiting to enter know that you are about the exit and leave a gap they can fill. The NH licensing testers will deduct points of you don't signal in a rotary.

Rich Is that a rotary or a round-about?

What Did Your Kid Say?
 

Did he get it right?

I call it a rotary... but to me they are all rotarys!

Rich If that is the one on Rt 28 it is a rotary and all 5 entrances have a yield to cars in the rotary.

You are correct, but in a very tight rotary (we have one in New London, too) by the time you would be able to see the directional (due to the location of signals and the plane of sight while waiting to enter) you may miss your chance to enter all together, it is just my opinion.

I fall back more and more on my motorcycle riding experience and tend to watch faces and body movements inside the vehicle to figure out what the driver is going to do. Too many people over here drive with their directionals on that it could hurt to trust the wrong one.

True, and if you both get to the rotary at the same time, the person on the right should go first. ;)

Now, let's get back to boating! :laugh:

I have to agree with jmen24 on this one.

If you both get to the rotary at the same time, the person or persons with no one to yield to go first. If the rotary is empty, you both just sail on into the rotary without slowing at all. One will always be ahead of the other in this situation so you can't possibly occupy the same space at the same time. This is what makes rotaries superior to 4 way stop signs.

Europeans in general, especially British, really "get" how to drive in rotaries. They are really fun over there because most people understand that the goal is to not slow down (which means you don't have to waste gas to speed up again) so people tend to rip through them at high speeds and high lateral acceleration loads. Most people here don't seem to understand that simple concept, sad to say.

Where is this "yield to the car on the right" coming from? Makes no sense at all and that link you provide has no info on that either.