SBONH versus WINNFABS
 

This is a sincere plea for sanity to return to this website.

The constant bickering that is spreading across endless threads between these two groups is like a cancer eating at this great website.

And the foolish and countless references to "the law we shall not speak about" is just as bad.

The law was passed. Life goes on. Some of you really need to grow up and start acting like adults!

I see so many good friends I have made here have slowly disappeared, or post very little anymore. Some have told me via pm or email that they are discouraged by the nasty debate that is only practiced earnestly by but a handful.

I slipped away for a year myself, rather than get caught up in the foolishness. But upon return find it, in my humble opinion, as bad as ever.

Both of your groups have websites. Man up and run your own blogs or general discussion boards. Have at it until the cows come home. But give the rest of us loyal Winni lovers a break and take the foolishness elsewhere!

That's my rant....and my apologies ahead of time to Don! :(

Wow. Thanks for your opinion Skip.

Fortunately, there are some people that still feel that there are unresolved issues on the lake and Don is gracious enough to allow this discussion to take place here.

Personally, I appreciate the input you have provided from time to time on this site.

But just like listening to the radio, if you don't like what you hear, change the channel. If you (or your friends) do not like the subject, then don't read it.
Maybe you could ask Don to open up the Speed Limit forums again so the discussion can take place there, but for now, the general boating section is where we discuss issues.

Please do not impose your wills or opinions on those that care about an important issue on the lake - safety.

Thank you Skip. As President of SBONH I have had conversations with Don regarding exactly what you speak of. I have spoken to the membership and have asked to keep any personal feeling regarding the winnifabs as well as the speed limits off of winni.com

If the subject continues to come up and a discussion turns sour this is not indicative of SBONH or its members. Unfortunately it is what occurs when there are differences of opinions regarding how the lake is to grow over the next year, decades, even generations.

I have personally held my posts many of time and continue to try to post only positive replies as well as keep the lakes region updated to safety issues and inspections.

I will always defend my group when called upon, however will never initiate a bickering match nor condone one. We are staying true to our mission statement to promote safety on the lake and effective legislation.

Thanks again for being such a supportive member to winni.com and hopefully your message will illuminate both sides of the debate to leave it alone now that it has all been said and done.

For the love of the lake, can't we all get along?
 

Ryan, I mean no disrespect when I say that your statement above is precisely what Skip is requesting as well.

FWIW, I count myself among those who have taken a hiatus from time to time, as a result of the bickering and temper-tantrums which occasionally erupt. As it stands now, I rarely click on the boating forum for that exact reason. I chose to avoid it, because I have many friends here on this forum, and they don't all exist on one side of the argument or the other. Therefore, I choose to avoid any topics which might sway my personal feelings toward any of them. ;)

SBONH & WinnFabs should team up?
 

Just imagine if these two groups could pool their resources and team up instead of the constant one upmanship going on here.

Of course they would not agree on every issue however I am a firm believer that if opposite sides of anything work through issues common ground can be found. Thoughts?

What would be your proposed solution to this issue?

I do not believe there is one, unless the site takes a vote on who is liked and not liked, then those with the highest not liked ratings get dumped and the site is made private.

This site is far more civil than most open public forums. Have you read the comments on any of the local mainstream media outlets lately, they are a train wreck.

sbonh and winnfabs?
 

DEJ, I am sure SBONH would be happy to work with winnfabs once they start supporting effective legislation that actually does something for our lake. Until then, I'm positive that SBONH and winnfabs will not be teaming up any time soon.

Everyone has their own take on this, based on personal opinions and politics, but I don't see the "versus" here.

Distilling the information posted here, it seems that Winnfabs was interested in making the lake "safer", and that the enactment of a single law did so much to increase safety that they really don't have a second act and now seem to be a mostly dormant organization.

SBONH appears to have somewhat reinvigorated itself and is now being led by an individual with supporting members who are using their personal time and resources to enhance boating safety through education instead of legislation.

Yes, there are always going to be people on both sides who are inarticulate, and use personal attacks and other methods to try to muddy the topics.

I can say that based on this years statistics, it would seem that boaters both experienced and inexperienced could all benefit from continuous education more than additional legislation...

Thank you Skip
 

The best post I've read in a very long time.

From this sites FAQ Overview. and my 2 cents
 

"The Winnipesaukee Forum is provided as a free service to anyone interested in the Lakes Region. It is not a free-for-all forum like many internet message boards. Although it is open to everyone and we encourage your participation, we insist that posts are relevant to the Lakes Region of New Hampshire, and that members do not violate the rules & guidelines.
The stated goal, mission and purpose of the Winnipesaukee Forum is:


"To facilitate communication and an exchange of information which is productive and beneficial for those interested in Lake Winnipesaukee and the Lakes Region of New Hampshire."
To that end we watch carefully what is posted and we reserve the right to moderate, restrict, edit or delete messages for any reason. We will use our judgement to moderate these forums in the way we feel is most appropriate to facilitate our stated goal. By using these forums, you agree to abide by these conditions and accept our moderation decisions.

Our hope is that the Winnipesaukee Forum will provide a friendly and entertaining environment for the enjoyment of anyone interested in Lake Winnipesaukee. Please feel free to join in or just look around!"

Thank You Skip for your post. Frankly, I too find myself drifting away from this site. Too many times, I check in, and see more nasty debate, snarly comments, and just plain rude behavior. Mostly centered around the whole "Speed Limit" issue.

I understand the passion each side has... but... if this debate was being held at a house party the host would rightfully tell both sides to "Take it Outside". :) I don't see that anything can be gained by more discussion of the issue. Nothing makes me "click off" any thread faster than the "issue" sneaking back in. :confused:

“As citizens we have to be more thoughtful and more educated and more informed. I turn on the TV and I see these grown people screaming at each other, and I think, well, if we don't get our civility back, we're in trouble.”
Emmylou Harris

I can also quote John Lennon.... "Give Peace a Chance" ;)

You can't legislate against stupidity.

Personally, I like reading the rants against the speed limits. First, the arguments are usually so predictable and irrational that they make me feel superior (which my dog assures me I am). Second, they are always good for a laugh since the speed limits are now law and perhaps some of these speed freaks will get caught.

Sky :laugh:

There is a great way SBONH and WINNFABS could work together. SBONH could print up 150 foot separation stickers and attach them to the speed limit signs that were erected at many launches. The signs would then point out the WINNFABS law, and also promote safety.

This is a great thread. The individual perspectives and subsequent discussions are thought provoking and it is easy to place one's personal feeling on a particular side. I have enjoyed the mild conflicts but know there are a few that spew hatred. I look beyond it and give much credit to the Webmaster who is a true PRO that applys rules as needed.

This forum is exciting with many contributers giving real experiences that really forces one to expand their focus on the lake and boating issues.

I am impressed at the offer of olive branches from OCTACTIVE (and others) and the group he represents and would hope continued success to the constructive work in education boaters and all of us need.

Thanks for the perspective of eliminating conflict. I do not want to live in a sterilized world without differing opinions or passions.

Pefect idea
 

LG, that is perfect. It is one of the initiatives that SBONH has discussed and is on the table. Personally, I believe that the SL signs at the ramps should be replaced with a good, clean list of all the most important rules. I think the problem would be making it be relatively encompassing while remaining succinct. I would think more than 7 and it becomes a somewhat of a waste because it will likely not be read.

This would be my start:
Speed limit
150' rule
Boating Certificate requirement

Please chime in and add to the list.

It is disheartening how many people have used Skip's "plea for sanity" thread as another excuse to take a pot shot about the SL.

BI, I quickly scanned back through the thread and did not see one reference or shot at the SL.

NO you completely miss the point
 

The VAST majority are sick of a limited group hijacking nearly every thread and turning it into some debate about who's views about about which boating laws make sense and which do not. We're sick of it. Stop it. Stop it now.

Now that is a positive statement.

Hope I have not missed something here,,,
 

Skip,

Is it safe to assume your post is regarding “bickering and nasty debate” not reasonable differences of opinion and healthy, honest, and reasonably respectful discussions about matters that impact all boaters.

I would hope most here would keep a civil tone, that does not mean candy coating, but reasonable exchange of opinions, preferences, and positions.

I also hope all here believe in the basic concept of freedom of speech, in that a healthy discussion about our disagreements is a good thing and the cornerstone of our county.

We don’t all have to agree on everything and in many cases we have a far better country because we don’t all agree, it allows for options and creates diversity.

I would argue that quiet disagreement and forced/imposed silence is counter to our American values.

If there is an expectation that we shall never speak of, or broach certain issues of interest to many, I missed that and would have to rethink my participation on this site.

I enjoy the friendly banter and ignore the few posts that I consider distasteful, but I do not think there is any serious problem in the way most here conduct themselves.

I dont read every post by any means, but it is my observation that most here are decent and reasonable people who are not all of the same mind about everything, and in my opinion that is both a good thing and why I enjoy the site.

Look more closely.

WinnFABS now being dormant

SL signs should be replaced by a list of "important rules"

Calling it the "WINNFABS law"

References to needing more education not more legislation

One entire post was "You can't legislate against stupidity"

"SBONH would be happy to work with winnfabs once they start supporting effective legislation that actually does something for our lake" A clear comment that the SL does nothing for our lake.

On the other hand OCDACTIVE posted thoughtfully and in keeping with Skip's plea. A shame some can't follow his lead.

BI, Sorry you took my post for what it was not. I responded to LG's post and believe that there needs to be method to inform boaters of all of the important safety rules that may effect them. Having one concise sign at the public ramps makes sense, tacking 6 or 7 additional signs on the signpost will not. The message will be lost.

My first rule I listed was the SL. It is the law. It passed. I have not posted against it since it did.

I believe that I have been pretty consistent in my message about educating boaters. I have advocated for a more intensive safety course and would prefer to see a practical, in water test be part of the process.

I disagree. VitaBene, who sent this evening (?post cocktail hour)missive, is an officer of your organization. My family found this PM to be somewhat disturbing. This very negative and nasty PM is indicative of the uphill battle your organization will have to fight if it is to overcome some of the negative associations and stereotypes people might have with the GFBL/anti SL groups...a culture of irresponsible thuggery and immaturity. As I said earlier, when one thinks of an officer in an organization, one wants to think character and integrity. This is not what comes across below. I will not hold my breath for an apology.



06-12-2010, 08:59 PM
VitaBene
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 926
Thanks: 134
Thanked 126 Times in 73 Posts Peace

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope those nasty boats and motorcylcles do disturb your tranquil shangrli-la!

Sleep tight and say night night to EC (we bonded and have decided to become buddies) for me as well.
__________________
Have a great summer on or around the Lake!

Again
 

Again you post this PM I sent to you (not your family). Again, I will state that I tried to take some of the nastiness off the forum and take it private. You decided to bring it back into the public realm.

To Skip and others, I responded to this thread in what I thought was a positive manner. I will not hijack your thread to respond further to SOTD.

But is it *untrue*? I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of any recent activity by Winnfabs in regards to increasing boating safety. The organization claims to be about "boating safety" (it's even part of their name), but all I've ever heard or seen from Winnfabs has been about a single issue. And now that that issue has passed, I personally haven't seen or heard anything new from them. There is no new updates on their website, there is no talk of "what's next".

I think that one problem many people, myself included, had against Winnfabs is that while they were claiming to be a "safety" group they really only had a single agenda item. So, I think that is a cheap and disingenuous approach, but I guess you could say they managed to make it work for them.

It would be hard to accuse SBONH of having some hidden agenda, or of misrepresenting themselves. I haven't heard of anyone attending one of their safety inspections and being told "Well, sir, the only way for your family to be safe on the lake is to get a performance boat with a loud exhaust".

Is one to presume that OCD's "Thanks" to VB's post is an endorsement of this kind of behavior from one of his officers? In light of pleas for "civility" from VtSteve to me in a PM and on the NWZ thread, I hope not.

Per my original post, I do not want to get into a back and forth on this thread or any thread. I think Skip's post was clear that it is this type of debate that brings the context of these threads and website down.

To answer your question however my "thanks" was to Vitabene for not carrying on or having the same banter that has occured on this specific topic already discussed at no end in other threads.

I also do not believe a private affair between two people should be brought into the public forums for that is why it was intended to be private. If he were speaking as an officer of sbonh then it would have been on the public forum.

I believe we all should see Skips plea as a message to both sides to move forward in a mutually respectful manner without dragging in past debates.

Go back and reread the last few posts. OCD stated that if a discussion turns sour it is not indicative of SBONH or its members. He is the president of SBONH. VB is one of his officers. VB's PM to me was about as sour as one could expect.

You have way too much time on your hands!

That is correct, if a discussion turns sour, You need to keep your PM's private IMO.

Thanks for proving my point.
 

You just don't get it. That's very apparent.

This PM was printed this morning in response to OCD's post:

"If the subject continues to come up and a discussion turns sour this is not indicative of SBONH or its members. "

VB is an officer in SBONH

VB said recently that there are people who can vouch for his character. His PM shows a lack thereof. If you read the initial post in the thread that prompted his less than classy response than his PM becomes even more indefensible.
The reputation of bullying, intimidation, and aforementioned thuggery is one that dogs your movement. OCD has sometimes done a reasonable job at trying to improve this image. We have seen posters on this forum state they think the lake seems much more tranquil only to have some of you state "let me know where you live, I'll try to take care of that". Some Winnfabs members have been threatened and notified authorities. There was even a post on one of the speedboat forums which read: " I can't wait to find out who the Asz is that started this! ....If this goes through I have a feeling that I may just end up on the front pages of newspapers!!!!" Unless actively countered this reputation will continue to dog your group. And believe me...this reputation was well recognized in Concord.

Last year I asked VitaBene to stop PM'ing me. This was in response to several PM's asking me to work out with him. I had and have no desire to do so and when he mentioned it the last time on the forum I told him to please stop the PM's. I received two PM's from him since this request.

Clearly I am disappointed that he continues to defend his PM and that he of unassailable character as well as OCD as SBONH president have not acknowledged that this is wrong. Hence my comment that I will not hold my breath waiting for an apology.

Now if you will excuse me I'm going downstairs to work out...by myself.

Wow. That is a LOT of heresay.

You just don't get it. That's very apparent.

SOTD, you need to take this off line and work it out with VB IMO. Painting with a broad brush suggesting other members are thugs etc is simply wrong. All you are doing is throwing gas on the embers or is that your intent? Everyone, please take a deep breath and stop this nonsense.

You know something Skip, I have come full circle, you were right on the mark with your first post. Thanks.

Boating rules are pertinent to boating discussions and the speed limit is certainly a boating rule. With that being said, it really is not necessary for every discussion to end up being about speed and organizations that are pro and con. Most members are proficient in directing a discussion back on track (and so is Don).

I don’t like that fact that some members are frequenting this site less because of speed limit talks (and undertones). I can understand member’s frustrations when a thread about tapping for maple syrup turns into a bare fisted brawl over a big loud boat running down kayaks in a no wake zone. Somebody already mentioned “if you don’t like it, change the channel”. Unfortunately that does not really apply here. Too many threads get hijacked and end up turning to speed limit talk. I am somewhat expecting to see a cooking thread turn into a speed limit debate (it would be interesting to see how that transition could be achieved).

Although the speed limit is law, the debate rages on. Folks throughout the lakes region are still talking about the changes on the lake and probably will for some time to come. There is no place for open debate on the speed limit here on Winni.com, so it proliferates its self (albeit thinly veiled) everywhere.

There is enough subject matter on Winni.com for everyone’s interests. If members stay on topic, this site should remain enjoyable for all. I do apologize if I have steered a topic off track in the past. please feel free to throw an :offtopic: if it happens again and I will happily delete my post.

I guess you had me fooled(shame on me) by making light and seemingly in agreement about the issue at hand(a NWZ).

Your comedy regarding GFBL was funny but you now seem to be back to your attempts to discredit and derail the current assn of folks working hard to try and improve our lake.

You should take a longer break than a workout break and just let it go.

Thank you.

Why can't the organizations work together?
 

Unfortunately, some good points are getting lost in the ground clutter.

There are many informative, educational opportunities that exist that the two organizations can truly work on together, both from a time perspective and financially.

I am not sure who on the forum is a member of WinnFABS, but I can assure you that I and other members of SBONH would gladly meet and discuss working on safety issues together. We need not agree on everything- who does in this world?

PM is PM and should not be posted in any way shape or form! Next we will call for a referee or a political biased news commentator to address racism found in between the messages in all forms of internet communications. Even though I like the topics and banter, there is some merit and truth in Skip's initial post as well meaning and thoughtful forum members get dragged into the mud.

The lake is waiting for all of us to use so maybe we can get back to the process of sharing ideas and perspectives on the betterment or sharing of the area.

Enough is enough in this one,,,
 

Well said!

Bringing the PM message into the forum for everyone else to see kind of reminds me of when my 6 & 7 year old boys get into an arguement and one says "I'm telling dad what you said!" :(

It's amazing to me that this thread has turned into exactly what Skip was posting about. My feelings about certain laws have been well documented but I have made a point to stay out of the fray for quite some time because I agree with Skip 100%. It's the old "he said it first" banter.

As does sending such an immature PM in the first place.

Unless of course the recipient has requested the sender to stop sending PM's or the sender speaks to the forum about his unassailable character.

No, not really. Certain members like V.B. seem quite capable of discrediting themselves and by association the organizations they represent. Go back and read the first post of the thread that prompted V.B's rude PM and you may better understand how people on this forum with differing views have been ridiculed to such an extent that they no longer post.

looking at my prior posts
 

I pretty much tried to stay on topic or chime in without aiming directly to SL supporters. In the beginning I was bad until I find out I am just wasting my time. I'm just adding fuel to the fire.

I was a member of Winnfabs in the beginning as I don't have a fast boat. After a few private meetings, I realize the agenda is not about safety but about raising the values of their properties. Lake George property values went up after they posted the speed limit. They were talking years ago about limiting size of boats and horsepower. The argument there is that they can claim Winnipesaukee as a water resevoir. Surrounding towns get their drinking water from the lake.

When they started soliciting folks signatures at supermarkets around NH. Not in the Lakes Region, and claiming the people of NH wants a speed limit. That really burns me. These are folks that have no clue how big the lake is or even visit the lake. I change my mind.

As for supporters saying they had bad PMs from opponents. I can tell you I was called a murderer by one supporter. Just because I said I can comfortably barefoot ski at 50 mph and I am teaching my children and grandchildren the sport. One called my a murderer to teach my siblings to barefoot ski! I am practicing and teaching my siblings on Lake Winnisquam. Thank you!

I have repeatedly remind the supporters to respect the Hartmann's and Beaudoin's wishes that they are not to be part of the SL debate. Mrs Hartmann expressly told me and I am a family member of the Beaudoins. Yet the supporters still use these cases as a ground for the SL.

I even saw one Winnfabs official leave the Meredith docks without properly ventilating the bilge before startup and proceed at above wake speed!

I'm done. There is no justice.

No posting of PM's PERIOD!
 

Yup, I'm in full agreement!

I respectfully disagree, problems with PM's should be addressed with the sender or the site admin, not the masses, thats just dirty laundry most dont want to see.

I am happy to see you folks exchange any kind of reasonable banter about ANY subject you are so inclined to address, no problems here. But the posting of PM's is just not what I want to read on a public forum,,,

I see no reason for exceptions on this one now or in the future, nor do I care to see how others have done it in the past. I say no one needs to be posting their PM's, NO ONE!

Well thats one persons opinion,,,

WinnFABS
 

I would like to clear up one misconception. WinnFABS was created for just one purpose. That sole purpose was speed limit legislation. There was no second agenda. Volunteers and funds were solicited for that reason alone. Anyone who thought differently was not reading WinnFABS literature. Go to the website now and you will find that the organizations purpose, was and is, just that simple.

Congtratulations!
 

Congratulations!! You have just graduated to my ignore list!! :banana:

One last thing: PM is an acronym for Personal Message. This is rhetorical question as I will no longer will longer be reading your posts, but for the benefit of the rest of the members who choose to continue to, just what part of the word "Personal" do you not understand?

winnfabs
 

guess they should have called it winnfafsl...
winnipesaukee family alliance for speed limits

Once again SOTD, IMHO PM's should be handled as PM's, period. Please keep your PM's to yourself. Thank you.

No problem (unless sender continues to PM after requests to stop or said posts are inappropriate and disturbing). By the way, I'm sure, in light of post #32 in this thread, that you might understand how such a PM might be disturbing to my family.

There seems to be another game going on here. "How many threads can I get locked?".

BI - Thanks for the clarification on the singular objective. I am totally impressed with your contributions and perspectives on your posting.

Skip - you are right in your first post in this thread.

OCD - You rock as well as the many others that post in a very upfront perspective.

Those that split hairs and end up being egged on into the bantering with a very few of the forum members - take a look at the quality of the bitterness that is exuded in the thread before our referee (WebMaster) is forced to take action. Is it worth the interaction? Each response becomes more immature and insulting to common sense. There will never be remorse or possible constructive dialog with certain posters. I am not the judge but I can only think of 2 that have caused many locked threads. Try to take a deep breath, count to 10, or mix a favorite cocktail before hitting enter. I know how hard it is to ignore the immature inuendoes but if eliminate our participation in the "close the thread" game we may achieve Skip's (and others) pain points.

Back to cocktails. What do people like to serve on the water? :emb:

I understand and ask that you keep your PM's between you and anyone else private, that is all. Thanks.

Folks -let's not forget what brings us here, a common interest and love of the Lakes Region. Don has worked tirelessly for years keeping this site going and out of respect for him and fellow forum members I think it's time to wave the white flags and bury the hatchet on certain matters. It does nobody any good to post things recklessly, and serves no purpose whatsoever. Skip brings up a damn good point and I agree completely. We all should make an effort to take the time to construct civil, respectful and thought provoking posts regardless of the subject matter.

There is no question that any topic of discussion could lead to differences in opinion and as already pointed out is not necessarily a bad thing. However I think we all need to consider the INTENT of our comments before posting them. There is never any room public or private to take cheap shots at each other. We should all strive for a little dignity and class. I personally have tried to stick to these principals ever since I joined this site and I hope that what participation I have had has been appreciated by all.

We've got a great group of people here it and that is what makes this site great. Without the participants it's of no value. Something to consider when you hit that reply button.

Humbly submitted.....

MAXUM :)

Rant to Skip!
 

You are nothing but a bubblehead!

If you don't understand, than just SKIP it!

Misty Blue, MM1 SS/DV.

Do you want to visit the plant in Tamworth? PM.

When "Safety" Becomes a Liability for Don...What Then?
 

There is nothing to be humble about: Mink Islander, MAXUM and Skip are exactly right. :cool:

Ironically, I find the answer to both of your entreaties posted by OCDATIVE:

One appropriate answer can be found in the signature of Rattlesnake Gal, who writes:


Has the President of WinnFABS ever appeared here to "politicize" Don's pages? :confused:


----------------------



But further, the very mention of:

1) "organization" (SBONH, Winnilakers, WinnFABS, NHRBA)

2) "President" (any President—Blizzard, OCDACTIVE, Bush, Obama)

3) "safety inspections"

4) "Proud member of SBONH..."

5) "www.sb0nh.com" / www.w|nnfabs.com and,

6) "have you had your vessel inspected yet"

...are each a "stick-in-the-eye" to those of us who want to be left alone to boat peaceably on Lake Winnipesaukee. :(

Every mention of SBONH implies that we quiet boaters are members of an "Unsafe" boating organization, whose slogan is, "Ignorance Forever!". :(

It's a fact that because we peaceable boaters have vessels which don't necessarily benefit from inspections, we do not instantly become unsafe boaters—by anyone's reasonable definition.

We are not to discuss "Politics" at this forum, yet that's what all this talk about "Safety" IS! :eek:

To forum members who don't have me on "Ignore", I would appreciate all others to delete signatures with the above political overtones that are not permitted here anyway—and to at least adopt some of the philosophy found in my signature—below:

_______________________
"Don't throw stones in the home of your host".