Still looking for the Seneca
 

Need some help here if anyone is so inclined.

I've been looking for this thing with no success. Ran side-scan around Goose Egg Rock (Moultonboro Bay) for an hour, flew on my scooter all around the black buoy for an hour also down to about 40 feet. No trace of any wreck any where.

A page from a book I read states:

"Early in the 1860's, Seneca was built at Melvin Village for Uriah Hall. This boat was short-lived. During a heavy windstorm she smashed on the Goose Egg, a dangerous rock on the Moultonboro shore, and foundered. The boiler, engine and much other equipment were salvaged, but the badly damaged hull was abandoned. The salvaged material was installed in another hull....later given the name Ossippee".

"Abandoned" to me means left there, but if it's in that area it certainly is not within 200+ feet of the rock, at least as far as the areas I searched.

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

More Seneca Information
 

Diver1111 and I have been doing some research on the old steamer Seneca which was built and wrecked near Goose Egg Rock in the 1860’s. This past September we visited the Tuftonboro Historical Society through the courtesy of Susan Hunter Weeks. There we found several newspaper articles (Seneca clippings.PDF), a Reference document (Seneca synopsis.PDF) and an old Duncan map (MapPik-Seneca) related to the Seneca. All the artifacts are attached below. Sorry, but you will have to rotate the Reference document to properly view it by opening the .PDF and then hit Shift+Ctrl+Plus.

I have also re-uploaded 2 pictures of the propeller which currently resides on the lawn in front of the Tuftonboro Historical Society. Just added a few miscellaneous pics of the salvage operation.

A brief search was conducted to locate the 2 individuals who found the large propeller discussed in the newspaper articles. John “Jack” McWilliams was located in Baltimore, MD. He conveyed to us that he had an 8mm movie of the salvaging of the propeller in 1976. He had it converted to video which we have uploaded to You Tube. Jack is the person in the wet suit while Bill Chambers is the other snorkeler. Susan Hunter Weeks is somewhere on the Kitty Belle barge during the salvage process as it was her father's barge. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wctlTcTlJQ

Everything we’ve found so far indicates that the propeller belongs to the Seneca. However, investigation has determined the following facts:
1. The steamer Seneca was built and wrecked in the 1860’s.
2. Per several books on Lake Winnipesaukee history, the first screw-driven steamer on Lake Winnipesaukee, the Mineola, was launched in 1877.

Therefore, since the Seneca was launched in the early 1860’s, she likely was a paddle wheeler and did not have a propeller. We have not yet found a picture of the Seneca so we can’t yet be sure that she was a paddle wheeler.

If you have any information regarding the Seneca or other possible mishaps/wrecks near Winnipesaukee flasher buoy #12, please share that information here or PM either one of us.
Thanks.

A couple of weeks ago I bought a paper back book from the gift shop on board the Mount Washington, entitled "Steamboats in Motion" by Bruce D. Heald. (1984) 104 pages.

On page 53 at the top, it says Maid Of The Isles (ex Gazelle) @ 96 feet, (1877) was the Second screw steamer on the lake. The Nellie @ 30 feet, (1872) was the First.. I saw the Nellie this past weekend in the boat shed at Mystic Seaport.

The Mineola was also built in 1877 and is mentioned in this book as "one of" the first screw steamers on the lake. On page 29 there is a picture of the steam engine from the Mineola.

This little book is well worth the extravagant price of $4. :D NB

The second link provided by Senter Cove Guy seems to indicate that Seneca was a Side Wheeler....although later on it goes on to infer it was a Screw Propeller.

Here are my thoughts: All the Side Wheelers and Stern Wheelers (Paddle wheel boats) that I have seen pictures of are "Walking Beam" engines.... including the early pictures of the Mount Washington. They have a BIG (obvious) triangular shaped cast iron thingy UP on what was then referred to as the Hurricane Deck.

It was a BIG rocker arm. The engines of that day... were Single/Double (paired) vertical cylinder engines (not compound) with a massive stroke..(the distance the piston travels). This stroke might be as much as 16 Feet... and connected to a crosswise "crankshaft" (bellcrank) upon which the two side paddle wheels were mounted.

SO: Back to the Seneca. The salvaged engine from the Seneca went into the new Ossipee. If you can find a picture of the Ossipee...I think you will find it to be a Side Wheeler. Therefore the Seneca was also a side wheeler. I don't think a Walking Beam engine (VERY long stroke) can be adapted to a screw propeller.........

Just thinking.. :look: NB

PS: I am just getting interested in BIG Steam and am still learning. If anyone has a different take on this I would like to learn more.

Propellers were high-tech gadgets in the early 1860's. It's possible the Seneca had one bit I'd bet against it. If you can get a picture of the "Osipee" I would expect to find the same type of propulsion (as suggested above) since it would be more expensive to rebuild the power-plant to another configuration.

Please don't conclude that I am saying our forbears were cheap-skates but they do have a reputation for being thrifty! :laugh:

But the question remains -- where's the rest of the (big) vessel that had such a monster prop? And, considering how well most of the big wrecks are documented around the Lake, wouldn't you think someone would note the sinking of something so large in the vicinity?

Whatever is left of the rest of whatever used that prop is out there...

Wild Goose Chase..??
 

Looking at the propeller as it is being lifted from the water, I was struck with a little anomaly. There is NO Propeller Shaft attached. If a boat was wrecked, wouldn't the propeller shaft still be part of what's on the bottom?

Removing a large propeller from its shaft is no easy task in the best of times..never mind underwater. I can't envision an earlier salvor disassembling the two large and heavy parts just to take the shaft and leave the prop for a later time. No hard hat and no scuba.....Maybe this propeller was being transported on a barge or vessel (as deck cargo) when the vessel sank...OR... the vessel took a roll in a squall and the prop went over the side, which might explain why no other vessel remains have yet been found.

BTW: Tug Boats usually have MUCH bigger props than another vessel the same size. Just something else to think about. :look: NB

NB has hit on few very good points here. I like your thought process.:D

Good point!

But the old accounts of the Seneca going down right there still leaves the question, "Where is it?"

I have a feeling we'll find something from it fairly soon. Meanwhile, the prop is a mystery in progress. Pretty cool.

More Questions
 

There was a steamer named EAGLE mentioned in my new "Steamers in Motion" book. There is a picture of EAGLE on the launch ways ready to be launched...the caption says it was in Lakeport in 1866. The boat is obviously NOT a paddle steamer. It's a screw steamer. You can almost see the propeller under the counter stern, behind some workers standing on the railway.

If this is true, then the NELLIE (1872) was NOT the first screw steamer on the lake. :look:

EAGLE is described elsewhere in the book as 60 feet long and built in 1885 at Lake Village.....There are people standing on deck in this broadside photo, so I took a pair of draftsman's dividers and took the height of the tallest person on deck and "walked" it off over the length of the boat..assuming the man was 6' tall. I make the boat to be about 125 feet long. What's a mother to do...?? :D :D

Could have been more than one EAGLE.....?? I guess the thing to understand here is that over time....different people telling the same story...or two different stories, over and over..the Facts may get confused. ;) NB

EDIT: I measured EAGLE again. I Mis-Measured. It's more like 75 feet..not 125. :(

EDIT 2: I'm embarrassing myself now. I failed to notice the picture of the EAGLE on the ways has NO Stack. Steamers have a smoke stack. Now my credibility is in the toilet. :(

Still looking for the Seneca
 

NoBozo, don't flush yet, your credibility is still intact. On pages 43 and 93, of Edward Blackstones book,"Farewell Old Mount Washington", there are pictures of Eagle with her stack.

RE-Thinking this. The picture of EAGLE on the launch ways was taken in Lakeport. I'll bet the STACK was not yet installed, so the boat could get under the Weirs Bridge....YES. :D NB

Thanks TH: I have heard of that book. Can you tell me where I can get a copy. :look: NB

EDIT: I just went to Amazon. Used copies only. Rattlesnake Gal also has a copy. She reviewed the book in 2004 and said it's a good book. Now I really need one. :)

This Thread & Mystic Seaport, the Museum of America and the Sea
 

What a great thread! Thanks for the wonderful information Senter Cove Guy!!!

Great museum! Here is more information about Nellie:

Also of interest at the museum:

I mentioned the Steam Yacht Cangarda in another thread...a month or so ago..about steam boats. The Cangarda ..@ 126 feet is NOW in Mystic Seaport...STILL operating with her original steam engine. One of three left in the world. I think she is in Mystic again for the winter. She was wintered there last winter..but I didn't then know her significance. We saw her again ...at the same time we saw "Nellie" almost two weeks ago.

http://www.tricoastal.com/Cangarda/Cangarda.html

Take a look at pictures of "Swallow'..a noted steam yacht on Winni. You will need one of the books for that. The Swallow looks smaller but a lot like the Cangarda. :) NB

Walking Beam (Paddle wheel) Vs Screw Propeller Engines
 

This is probably not of much interest to most readers of this forum, but I'll comment anyway.....just in case it might fill in a little piece for someone .....

The Walking Beam Engines that were the norm for paddle wheel steamers had one or two cylinders. The cylinders were verticle, and Upside Down compared to the Screw Steamer engines that followed. The power was transmitted UP to the walking beam and then DOWN to the Crank Shaft (BellCrank) to the paddle wheel.

The cylinder was on the bottom...the piston rod pointed UP. This is the opposite of almost ALL engines that followed including the gas/diesel engines of today.

The very early engines had horizontal cylinders..they had a BIG wear problem because they were lying flat..and were abandoned...

The screw steamer engines had the cylinder heads on TOP..the crankshaft on the bottom....this connected nicely to a propeller shaft :) NB

RG made me do it: :D I NOW have a nice copy of "Farewell Old Mount Washington". :) The book has been out of print since the first edition in 1969. NB

PS: Just to clarify..RG did not sell me her copy.

Very Interesting Thread
 

I just spent the last few minutes going through this thread and watching the old home movie on Youtube. Has anyone else noted the irony of a paddle wheel barge salvaging what may have been the first propeller on the Lake? :D I've enjoyed watching the Kitty Belle over the years; it brought the materials and equipment for my parent's septic system to Cow Island in the late 1960's when Mr. Hunter owned it and did the same for us many years later with George Randall at the helm... Very interesting subject!

Seneca Propeller
 

I've been thinking again. :look: Maybe the propeller shaft "Broke Off" ...just ahead of the propeller hub, and dropped the prop on the bottom. This could happen if the propeller shaft was not properly "Heat Treated" when it was manufactured. I have seen this happen with small engines. If the steel is heat treated improperly... and the steel becomes TOO Hard (Brittle) ....then ........SNAP.

SO: THIS (above) theory could be discounted quickly by just having a look at todays Propeller On The Lawn. Is there SOLID Steel material clogging the inside BORE of the propeller hub...OR... is it just rust scale from the bore itself. ....OR... is the bore CLEAN..:look: If the bore is clean, then my original hypothesis still stands. :) NB

PS: I'm usually the first person to question my own thinking. :D

Prop question
 

I recall asking Jack McWilliams via email recently if the prop had any part of a shaft attached, and although I didn't keep the email I believe he said yes. If anyone happens by the prop in front of the Tuftonboro Historical Society take a quick look and see if any of it is still in the prop and let us know. I'm not done searching this area for the Seneca.

In the past when I'm looking for one thing I find something else just as interesting, sometime more interesting.

Looking again at the photo of the Propeller on The Lawn it looks to me like the hub "Bore" is covered...maybe by a washer and a through bolt down to anchor the prop to the granite/cement base. If that's the case.... A "Look" at the prop will be inclusive..Can't SEE the Bore.

Based on my Book Readings..I still think the Seneca was a side wheeler..not propeller driven. THIS Prop is from another boat.

BTW: Screw driven steamers were in existence at least as early as the Cival War. Monitor..Merrimac..etc

Keep up the Hunt Diver. :look: NB:

Hey -- Did you ever get a chance to check out that "target of interest" a bit west of there? When you sent me the sonar pic & numbers, I said I'd hit it before the end of the season, but never did. Just curious, because it looked promising...all alone there on a comparably "clean" & smooth bottom.

Target to check out
 

Yes Grant I did. The object really lit up when I first got the image and had my attention as the surrounding area is all mud; I dropped a flag right on it and scanned for a long time trying to pick it up again and get it from different angles. I found nothing-zip-zero. Late in the day though and no time to dive it. Bizarre but it happens.

I went back again another day and also found nothing, repeating what I did the first time. I need to go back yet again, flag it and just dive and see what happens, which is as a rule, turns out to be no object all that would create such a side-scan image.

I would post the image but I'm not done with it yet-I will when I'm done working it as I didn't remove the Lat/Lon from it and if it turns out to be something worthwhile I don't want it's exact position in the wind.

Cardinal rule of side-scan: If the target is really there-you can repeat a scan and get it again, although it may not look at all like the same thing, but there should be an object there nonetheless.

I am still trying to figure out why this is so i.e., I have something that even casts the well-known side-scan shadow often with right angles in the image lit up along their edges in white but no matter what I do I can't find any evidence of it again.

I had something else last summer in Alton that was big, cast a shadow, had 2 squarish ends to it-bright white returns on the sonar from its edges-wow it looked like very cool find. I flagged it, dove it at 55 feet-zero-zip, again. I am still mystified how there was nothing there. I even swung a 40 foot loop around it with my wreck reel-nothing.

Mis-judging what an object is is one thing; Scanning something that in my experience is very real and worth diving only to find absolutely nothing is still confuses me. Not even a rock-I mean there is nothing in the area with these periodic "finds".

Thank you very much to Jack McWilliams and Bill Chambers for providing Senter Cove Guy and me their photographs AND video to post- outstanding background information for this search!

And thank you to those who have helped me and SCG continue the search and posted here on Winni.com; Great shots of the Nellie too!

I love this stuff.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...1&d=1320042170

Close up of the prop.

Yeah -- interesting. I revisited the side-scan you sent me, and everything you mention is there -- the shadow, well-defined edges, whiteness. I'd like to try it with a reel when I get back in the water...seems like something has to be there. Thanks!

This is what I was afraid of. However, that cap doesn't look like something that someone added to keep the prop in place on a foundation on the lawn. That cap looks like it's "Original" to the prop. I have NO Idea what that cap is about....ie..how that cap assembly would hold the prop on to a shaft...but I'll take a guess in a moment.

There are only two (normal) scenarios as to how a prop is retained on a "Straight Inboard" shaft.*** The shaft has a "Taper"..and the prop bore has a "Taper" that mates with the shaft. There would also be a "Key" to prevent the prop from rotating relative to the shaft. Then..there would be a BIG Nut and cotter pin on the externally threaded end of the shaft to keep the nut from unscrewing, and the prop from sliding off the shaft.

The other scenario would be the same..Except..the shaft, AND prop bore would be straight. I'm going to make an educated guess that this prop bore is straight..because cutting a tapered bore would have been more difficult in those days than today. If a rough taper or straight bore would have been cast into the hub when the prop was made....then it would still have to be finish machined/reamed.

A Third scenario: The Cap, and relatively small hex head "bolt" in the picture may have been threaded directly into the center/end of the prop shaft. The two square "Nubs" may be some sort of tapered keys that were driven in to prevent prop..or the hex bolt from backing off, and/or prevent rotation on the shaft. This would likely be a straight bore.

SO: In any case, I think this would imply that there is a broken shaft STUB in the bore. I'm not familiar with this method of retaining the prop on a shaft, but I think it would work and perhaps that is how it was done..Back Then.

BTW: Screw propellers came into use elsewhere, in about 1843.

I may have to take ride down to Mystic Seaport and have another look at the propeller and fastening method on Nellie. Nellie was donated to the museum in 1956..and May ....have a modern prop. :look: NB

NOTE*** Modern outboards and outdrives have straight "splined" shafts and prop hubs.

EDIT: Looking back at RGs pictures of Nellie, the prop looks like a fairly modern prop with a double nut ..(no cotter pin needed) holding it on..just like it would be today.

Update
 

OK: I live about an hour away from Mystic Seaport and we are members ..so we can go in for free anytime. We went today..this time I took my camera.

We went to the boat shed again to have another look at Nellie. (The first propeller driven steamer on the lake). I took some nice close ups of the prop..and the way it was fastened to the shaft. The pictures were closer than RGs....but only confirmed what I had suspected. The Nellie has a modern propeller with a double nut retention. Nothing that will shed light on the propeller retention on the Seneca...IF SHE was actually a screw driven steamer.

I took a couple of pictures of a work boat propeller (Small Tugboat)...........still nothing to shed light on the Seneca question.

The Sabino, a functioning screw steamboat operated by the Museum for "Rides"..is over by the lift dock now..still in the water. I'm wondering if she will be hauled out at some point during the winter.

The LA Dunton..(1920s Grand Banks fisherman..schooner) is OUT on the lift dock...so maybe the Sabino won't come out.

We go down to the Museum every few weeks as part of a Sunday Ride..all winter.

Below....THIS is the prop on the Nellie.
It's double nutted..with a nut and shaft designed for a cotter pin..the cotter pin is missing. OH Well.....It's a modern shaft and prop. :) NB

I have to clarify something that may not have been evident... I was interested in the Nellie because it was from the same period as the Seneca. There is however a BIG difference....the Seneca..assuming it was a screw steamer, was MUCH bigger than the Nellie and as such their propellers and retention systems "Might" be very different. I had to look.

The propeller atributed to the Seneca was six feet in diameter. The current propeller on the Nellie is maybe 18-20 inches. One of the pictures I took (Below) last weekend of Nellie revealed the "Stamp" on the hub of the prop that identifys the Diameter and Pitch of any modern prop. The pitch is 30 inches. I can't see the stamped diameter. BUT it doesn't matter. There is NO comparison with Nellies current propeller and the "Seneca Propeller"

I can ZOOM on MY picture but I think maybe you can't. But again it doesn't matter. NB

Just family notes
 

I don't know anything about steam ships and how they work -- however I did talk to my brother who was driving the Kitty Bell the day the propeller was recovered (so my father could drive the tractor) and he thought he remembered a broken piece of shaft on the propeller. It could have been later removed when the propeller was "readied" for display at the museum by Bob Ramsbotham. Both my brothers that were there that day said the propeller was in less than 12 feet of water (easily verified by the fact the bucket on the back hoe only could raise the propellar up on to the deck if it was less than 12 feet) and even guessed that maybe it was only 8 to 10 feet - which means if the Seneca actually did sink there it would have been above the water line by alot considering the water used to be lower in the lake than it is now - even if it was on it's side. Is it possible the builder of the Seneca who was local from Melvin Village would have been able to "hook" on to the Seneca and drag it to a beach where he could recover the engine and other useable parts easily? Of course all this is indeed guessing that the propeller was actually from the Seneca. Before my Father owned the Kitty Bell he had a wooden barge in the late 50's that he recovered from the bottom of the lake and used for years. So a big boat like the Seneca would have been prime for lots of salvage if it was out of the water by that much?

I noticed a chunk missing out of one propeller blade in the picture in post #2.

It wouldn't suprise me if the boat owning that prop HIT the rock with the prop and broke the shaft..dropping the prop to the bottom. The shaft obviously being the weak link. I expect the shaft had a flaw during manufacture.

I still cannot determine what material the propeller or shaft might have been made of. It "Looks Like" cast iron but I haven't been able to find out just what those items were made of back then.

Large iron castings are made in a sand mold, and depending just HOW heavy they are,... are "shaken out" of the mold at just the "right time" during cooling. If the casting is exposed to cooling AIR Too Soon after the pour, the casting will be brittle. The iron will still be very hot..but solidified, when it comes out of the mold.

If the casting stays IN the mold too long, ...cooling too slowly, the result will be too soft.. it will bend very easily and be worthless.

Large castings were also Aged to relieve built in stresses before being brought to a machine shop to be machined. Typically, a casting would be put outside in the yard to be exposed to the weather for months..or longer,.. winter and summer. If this was not done, a machinist might machine the piece to a certain dimension today...and tomorrow morning..or next week that dimension might have changed ...because the casting was not stress relieved. Temperature changes out in the yard helped "relax" the casting.

I still don't know if a propeller shaft would have been Cast. :look: NB

NOTE: In the mid 70s I worked for Brown & Sharpe Manufacturing (Machine Tools) in RI as a young engineer. We still had a cast iron foundry in Providence..which is today referred to as The Foundry....Brown & Sharpe is now defunct.

Update
 

I recently found a book exclusively about the construction of the sidewheel steamer Beaver (1835) commissioned by the Hudson's Bay Company for use in the Pacific Northwest. The book was so tedious,....boring..more like e textbook, that I put it aside before completing it...:D

Today I remembered I had seen Materials Lists in the book for many ..if not every piece of wood and metal used in the construction of that boat and her (2) engines. There it was: :) Every shaft, and dynamically "stressed" part in the engine was made of Wrought Iron. Other metal pieces..according to it's intended purpose, used Cast Iron, Brass, Bronze, Lead, etc.

I NOW have NO Doubt that the propeller in question..and its shaft were made of wrought iron...not plain cast iron. For those of you who really want to torture yourself, below is a great article on wrought iron. Plenty of good technical stuff..:)

PS: I get an extra Adult Beverage tonight before dinner, for this discovery. :liplick: NB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrought_iron

Under The ICE
 

I'm wondering if the Clarity of the water under the ICE is any better than in warmer months. If so, I would think this would have to be balanced by the Safety Issue ..Under The Ice. Just curious. :look: NB

While I have not done any ice diving on Winnipesaukee, I've seen a number of photos from ice dives on the Lady of the Lake, and the visibility in those photos looked remarkably better than it is in summer months. That could be specific to that dive site, as the cove where the Lady lies is relatively shallow (the wreck is just 30 feet to the sand) with a ton of boat traffic. However, given the impact of algae, boat traffic, etc., on visibility, I'd bet the visibility is much better under the ice.

In our local lake down here, the annual December 31st dive and the early spring dives almost always feature much better visibility.

Hard to believe that we're just 7 weeks from the unofficial start of dive season down here, and I hope to be under the surface of Winni 3-4 weeks after that.

Light at the end of the tunnel!

Picture of the Seneca
 

Finally.

Today I was speaking a the Lake Winni Historical Society & Museum on the hill near FunSpot. At the end of my presentation I detailed 2 things I continue to look for and asked for help as I always do-the Seneca being one of them. The other is more info on the air-dropable life boats in the lake.

A man comes up to me afterwards and says there's a picture of the Seneca on the wall in the other room. Sure enough-a real beauty too. David Lawton removed it, went to his office and made a copy for me. Over the years I've gone thru the Museum periodically checking out new and old stuff. I never saw this before but am very pleased this man mentioned after hearing my comment.

That said she is clearly a side-wheel steamer. Using a ruler I measured the wheel house height and estimated the height of a man inside piloting it.

Using that as a base reference I estimated the length of the Seneca at "about" 156 feet.

The search continues.

Not "our" Seneca
 

Senter Cove Guy has determined that the steamer I got a photograph of recently is not "our" Seneca-it is one from upstate New York. As in Seneca, NY. As in the Seneca tribe etc.

He used the lettering on the paddle wheel lunette to dig a bit. I saw that too but couldn't read it.

I thought this was our steamer but no. The search continues

Disappointing
 

I was so excited when Diver1111 called me to tell me about the picture he found. But, alas, a little digging on the internet found this picture. The writing just below the diamond and the name SENECA is "Glen Route". That was the give-away.