Long Lake night navigation accident
 

This was in our local paper today. It's about a fatal night time boating accident on Long Lake in Maine. Once again it's were lights used, was speed used. Still under investigation. According to the paper though the cigarette boat hit the smaller boat with such force that it tossed out the occupants of the larger boat after splitting the smaller boat in half. The two people in the smaller boat were killed from drowning and blunt trauma.
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/homepage/x368115076

The Boston Globe had this article on boating today

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...dents_on_rise/

Big story
 

This has been the talk of the Lakes Region of Maine since happening last Saturday night. All of the same issues are now being raised here that this forum has been inundated with, ad nauseum, since the boating fatality on Winnipesaukee a couple of years ago. Speed limits, ban cigarette boats etc., etc., etc. Let's wait for the facts to come out.

BT

I'm disappointed in the Globe. I happen to live in Maine and work in the Naples, Maine region. While the "hitter boat" was a go fast and was going fast (landed 150 feet into the shore), the "hittee" was believed to be watching a meteor shower without any lights. Let's wait for the complete investigation, but let's not use this as an excuse to attack certain boats. Any loss of life is a tragedy; let’s get to the root cause, which was not the type of boat.

Globe article was RIGHT ON!
 

The last paragraph asks that very question...so it doesn't sound like you read the ENTIRE article...rule number one in journalism reviews!:rolleye2:

Anywho - the article states pretty clearly the investigation is ongoing to determine, speed, alcohol, and whether the small boat had its lights on, which is relatively easy to determine.

Too hostile - that's how I describe the lakes on weekends. Our friends don't even ask to go boating on weekends anymore - getting tossed around in the rough wakes and watching the craziness of the weekend warriors...not for me! We enjoy the quieter weekdays and pre and post season boating.

BT, it's not exactly the same. Maine has the "Reasonable and Prudent" boating law.

Globe article is same old, same old
 

Actually I did read the entire article and the reason I was disappointed was that Mr. Levenson’s disclaimer was at the end of the article on the second page. Mr. Levenson clearly set his agenda in the first few paragraphs of his piece. As most realize, especially those in the trade, the majority of newspaper readers rarely read more than the headline and maybe the first few lines or a caption for a picture. Do you really think the articles on Boston.com are posted to be reviewed? Or that they represent journalism?

No, this was an article with one intent, dump on go-fast boats and avoids the real issue.

Most boats sold today will reach speeds into the mid thirties or above, a collision at 35 mph can yield unfortunate results. It is not the type of boat which kills, it is the driver who drives too fast or otherwise shows gross disregard for basic boating safety.

BTW, I have boated for over 50 years, day, night, weekend, and weekday, pre-season, post-season, I do not own a go-fast, and I boated all day today without exceeding 10 mph. Nice waves today!

I wasn't going to post on this one since I don't work for the Globe or New York Times. But I do have to say there is a difference between a poorly written story and one with an agenda.

MeEscape wrote:
While I agree that many people who read publications like the Boston Herald, New York Post etc and primarily get their "News" from Fox are Headline readers and rarely go beyond the caption in the photos I've found that folks who read the Globe actually read it.

I don't understand what your comment about articles on Boston dot Com mean? The article that was in my hardcopy of the paper this morning was also on Boston dot Com.

MeEscape wrote:
The article was poorly written because, while the catalist was the accident in Maine, it dealt with the New England states that do not have mandated boating education and was not clear on that point. It also did not outline the significance of an unlighted boat on the water at night and as you point out it didn't mention it or say the incident remains under investigation until the end of the article.

As I pointed out in the Speed Limits thread, Mass has a speed limit but what law enforcement is crying out for is boater education. NH has boater education and no speed limit and NH doesn't have nearly the problem Mass does when it comes to boating issues and from what I've read in the press, NH law enforcement says speed limits aren't needed in that state.

A poorly written artilce is just that, poorly written. It is not necessarily someone with an agenda.

You're kidding right?

What does your bird prefer?
 

Well, my parakeet absolutely loves the Globe - he won't let me line his cage with anything else! :D

Oh, the Irony...
 

Y'know, craziness was mentioned earlier on the forum—here.

(Excerpted below)

:confused:

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger.

The Globe article not only reflects the public perception, it is reality.

1,000 horsepower on small inland lakes is silly and dangerous. At one point the cigarette boat was traveling across the lake with nobody on board. It crashed between two homes, dumb luck only two were killed.

We keep hearing lately that we don't need a speed limit because very few boats can go much over 45 mph. Yet the last two fatal accidents on Winnipesaukee involved boats that can travel well over the proposed speed limit. That includes the accident a few weeks ago that everybody wants to forget.



"Crash statistics show a growing problem. Nationally, the number of boating deaths, injuries, and incidents of property damage increased for the second consecutive year in 2006, according to the Coast Guard."

OK, how fast was the boat going when it struck the other boat? Was it going over 45? How do you know?
Any type of boat going any speed with no operator will eventually crash into shore. Style of boat makes no difference here.

I'm still not 100% convinced a speed limit would stop this type of thing from happening though. An idiot's an idiot wether there is a speed limit or not.

Coast Guard statistics clearly show the top cause of accidents is boater inattention, followed by careless / reckless operation and then excessive speed. If you read the report, excessive speed is defined as "speed above which a reasonable and prudent person would have operated under the conditions that existed. It is not necessarily a speed in excess of a posted limit". So excessive speed could be 20 mph or it could be 100 mph.

According to the CG, 87% of accidents happened at speeds below 40 mph with the greatest percentage under 20 mph.

If you read the report, you will also notice that while over the reporting period (10 or so years) the number of registered boats has increased 15% (by 1.7 million), the number of fatalities based on the number of registered boats has decreased over 30%. NH is, overall one of the best states statistically.

Its a very interesting report. Maybe the WinFABS professional lobbyist should read it (I'm sure Barrett has). Here's a link http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2006.pdf

I think the facts speak for themselves, but I'm sure they will be twisted.

One other note, only 14% of all accidents were caused by operators who had a boating certificate that would be recognized by NH, over 40% had no boater education (the status of the remaining operators was unknown)

Sorry, but your math is wrong

Fatalities under 10 mph = 143
Fatalities 10 to 20 mph = 35
Fatalities 21 to 40 mph = 54

Total under 40 mph 232

Total Fatalities 710

232/710=.326

The correct answer is 33% of fatalities happened at known speeds below 40 mph.

The 87% answer was "cooked" by assuming that all accidents with unknown speeds were under 40 mph.

The boat in which the two people in Maine were killed was motionless. I believe the CG would count that statistic in the "Not Moving" category.

My math isn't wrong, your's is, under 40 is 332, no 232, whose cooking?. But, least I got you to read the report ;). I think it is safe to project that the unknown speeds were in the same proportion as the known ones. But, if we throw out the unknown speeds, 338 fatalities at known speeds, 322 at speeds below 40mph = 95% Thanks for helping me make my point. BTW,

Not Moving 90
Under 10 143
10 to 20 35
21 to 40 54
Over 40 16

Total 338
Under 40 322

Equals 95%


This is from page 35. Interestingly, if you look at the horsepower statistics and again eliminate "unknown", 89% of fatalities involved boats with less than 250 HP. All the numbers seem to be in alignment.

Also, look at the boater ed stats. 70% of fatalities occurred on boats where the operator had not received any instruction (of any kind). This number increases to 84% if you only look at certificates that NH would accept.

In regards to the ME accident since the boat the hit the motionless vessel was at speed (unknown now), I would hope that it would be reported at that speed.

This is the kind of stuff the legislature needs to see, facts. Thanks for helping me to decide to take on that cause.

I don't see how you can include "unknown" in the calculation? Do you feel it is fair to assume that unknown speeds can be equally distributed over the known speeds? Otherwise you are skewing things. Only what is known is known. Again, if you look at known speeds, 95% happened at speeds below 40 mph. Are you disputing that?

Do you disagree with horsepower and education stats as well?

Bear Islander, where did your post go? The one I just responded too claiming that my stats were wrong?

Nobody follows these statistic fights.

You want to assume that all unknown speeds are slow speeds. I could assume that the reason the speeds are unknown is because they are to hight to measure.

The real question to ask is why the CG has no idea of the speeds involved in more than 50% of fatal accidents?

I didn't say I wanted all unknown speeds to be slow speeds, I said (twice) that they could be equally distributed (proportionally) to all known speeds. Seems like a reasonable method.

I think all the statistics, when combined; education, horsepower, speed, boat size, alcohol, etc. are consistent. If one were out of skew with the rest, it would be one thing, but they aren't. I honestly have to ask that if they pointed in a different direction, would you be championing them? Would that be a you would follow?

I'm not sure about the speed unknown thing either. What I really don't understand is the horsepower unknown. Seems like that should be pretty straight forward to determine.

Time to go boating!

You are on the money about idiots.

But if Maine had a 25/45 speed limit there is a good chance that instead of bringing this boat from Massachusetts to a small lake in Maine, he would have taken it to the ocean, or not purchased it in the first place.

This theory is not a sure thing, but there is a "good chance". When it comes to life or death, I will play the percentages that favor life.

"Above the fold" is not in reference to your chest. :D :laugh: :laugh:

Speaking of misinformation and math skills.

The 32' Sunsation powerboat had twin 435 hp motors, by my calculations thats 870 HP, certainly not well over 1000 hp as you claim.

You have stated here in the past your own boat often travels in excess of 60 mph. I know my own 23' boat has a difficult time hitting speeds of 50mph, and its a single 250hp engine.

What is the combined HP of your boat that is capable of speeds in excess of 60MPH and using your own words "does it quite often" ?

Don't have a bird, so I have no use for the Globe, your bird will likely be disappointed soon however judging from the latest Globe circulation stats.:laugh:

How can a boat that's not moving cause a fatality? These speeds have to be for the victim's boat, not the boat that causes the collision.

If he remains on the scene, the boater that caused the collision can "make up" a speed for his boat.

The boat hit in Maine was "Not Moving". This shows you that these statistics don't tell the story.

A 1,000 horsepower boat is more dangerous than a 100 horsepower boat. This is especially true after the driver has been ejected.

Did I miss this?
 

I think I miised something. Is there a thread in this somewhere? I hadn't heard about this.

Where does it say this?
 

Where in the article referenced in post #1 does it state that the boat which was hit was not moving?

Not moving refers typically to a fall overboard. A fatality does not have to be a result of a collision. According to the USCG, 2/3 of all fatalities were from drowning and 90% of those weren't wearing PFDs. Of the 710 fatalities reported last year, 202 were from falls overboard.

If you read the report, everything is pretty well defined. I have asked for clarification on speed, that is if one boat is moving and the other is not, what is the reported speed of the collision. Once I receive a response, I'll share it.

Thank you Paugus Bay Resident
 

It is great to see at least one participant that places statistics with research and believable prespectives. There seems to be many that take the headlines or published statistics to create sensationalism like the papers that are vaulable only for lining bird cages.

So... using your logic the Mount Washington with 1300 HP is more dangerous than an 80 HP jet ski operated by a drunk teenager? I think I'll take my chances with the Mount...

HP is merely a measure of the ability to do work, it's not a measure of danger. You've once again confused the boat with the operator. The occupants of the boat that was hit could have just as easily been killed by the Songo River Queen, a 16 foot bowrider, a jet ski or a bass boat. All have enough mass to do lethal damage at 1/2 their top speeds.

Actually a Sunsation would be equipped with twin 425 HP mag HO's for a total of 850hp. Merc does not make a 435hp per engine package. The next engine setup above this would put it at 1000+hp. Engine choices are 320hp, 375hp, 425hp, and 525hp.

For the record I have to agree that the Dominator is too much boat for Long Lake. I almost bought a Sunsation and have driven the 32' Dominator. If anyone has a picture of the offending boat I would love to see it, I am curious to see if it is the one that I test drove. There are not a lot of Sunsations in the area so it is quite possible if it was bought here in NH. There are no dealers in Maine or Mass, and no longer one in NH.

The difference in size between Long Lake and Winnipesaukee is huge, that boat on Winni is a perfect size. Not too big and handles the rough water quite well

I stand corrected, Thanks Codeman. A little less power than I quoted. My information came directly from the link to the article listed above.

My point was that Islander was exaggerating the HP of the sunsation powerboat to make her point. She is obviously against that type of boat in particular.

The boat in the accident and her own boat are capable of traveling in excess of 60 mph. Both can deadly under a specific set of circumstances.

There are sufficient laws that are currently in place to handle this. Rest assured the prosescutor in the case will not be scratching his head trying to figure this out. If he was going too fast he will be violating the reasonable speed law. Throw in a DUI and his days of being a free man are over for quite a while. We need more patrol for unsafe boating.

If the guy in the Sunsation was going "reasonably" slow and was sober how would a speed limit help this?? Maybe a law BANNING boating at night because people can't grasp how to use navigation lights(speculating the other boat was dark...).

If he was drunk and going 70MPH do you really think a person with this type of thinking would be concerned with a speed limit law anyway? If there was a patrol boat anywhere near him he would have been stopped both here or in Maine based on the current laws.

These speed limit laws are just band-aids covering a bunch of uneducated boaters. I tell you what, NH really screwed up by allowing the internet testing for the license. Now we have a state full of "educated" boaters that don't know crap. They got their license by cheating on the test and now there is no way to really force education.

If you believe that the 32' Dominator is to much boat for Long Lake, then perhaps you can understand that some people think it is to much boat for Winnipesaukee.

Yes my boat can go 60 mph, which not surprisingly is the speed I would pick for a speed limit. But when the 45 mph limit passes I will obey it. The next boat I buy will I'm sure have lower HP.

I like speed but I like the lake more. Thirty years from now when there is a 50 hp limit on winni I will abide by that.

The Mount can take 1,250 passengers. That is about 1 horsepower per passenger. How does that compute for the 32' Dominator? How many passengers does she take?

Just another note on the two boats that were involved. The Sunstaion has a ratio of about 8.1lbs per horsepower while the 14' glasspar had only about 6.5lbs/HP . The Glasspar was a very fast boat, possibly faster than the Sunsation, and most likely very overpowered at 115HP on a 400lb boat..

The top speed of the boat is not everything!!!

I boat on Long Lake often and while I would never own something like that Sunsation (and would be a bit emabarassed to operate a boat called "dominator"), I have to say, I don't think it's too much boat for that lake. Don't forget Long Lake, Brandy Pond and Sebago lake are all connected and together likely have more acreage than Winnipesaukee. Sebago is also just as wide-open and rough as the Broads, maybe more so. So to say it's too much boat is like saying it would be OK in the broads but too much boat for Meredith Bay or Alton Bay.

For those unfamilar with Long Lake, the northern "half" is much like Alton Bay and the Southern "half" is much like Meredith Bay. It's 11 miles long. Brandy Pond is alot like Paugus Bay minus the islands.

I don't think "dominator" was the name of the boat but it was the model. Still kind of obnoxious.....
I really hope the truth comes out in this and it can be used to educate some of the real dopes out there.