Lower Crowds
 

Not only Winnipesaukee experienced lower crowds this year. According to the Boston Globe, many New England parks and beaches have been having a slow season.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...great_indoors/

According to the article, some possible culprits are high gas prices, the internet and video games.

The wildest idea, is to blame standardized testing in schools. I guess everyones studying too hard, no time for field trips. But don't kids still get the summer off?

Winni is not a park with easy to measure entrance fees as a benchmark. Do people on this site see the kind of drop off reported in the article? They're reporting 5% nationwide to around 25% on Mt Katahdin.

i agree. i'll be surprised if winni isn't off 15-20% this year. there were two weekends this year could be considered crowded; and one of them wasn't the 4th of july. the last two weekends in july were the busiest all year. we were at timber last weekend and practically had the place to ourselves. the weather wasn't the best, but that never kept people away before.

smaller crowds
 

I agree,

far fewer folks here... roads are less crowded.. and stores are less crowded

Gas?, cost of hotels? ... I don't know... but the traffic is way down..

SteveA

I, too, have the impression that tourist traffic is way down this year. Perhaps some of our members who are involved in tourism-oriented businesses might have access to some hard data?

Gas prices may be a contributing factor where casual day trippers are concerned; the slow conversion of motels into condos may also have something to do with this.

I'm probably going to get flamed big-time for "outing" this, but I suspect that another reason may be the impression of a rather pronounced lack of welcome for vacationers with boats that I've felt growing over the past few years.

A perfect example of this impression can be found in another current thread, where a first-time visitor who's been checking out some recent threads wondered if there is anywhere on the lake that her family and their friends can tie their boats together without getting in trouble for it.

Does anybody know how many of the boats that were "rousted" by the MP SWAT Team raid at West Alton sand bar a few weeks ago were vacationing boaters? If they were, any bets as to how many of them made their next year's reservations before they went home?

Another contributor to that impression which comes to mind were earlier threads which, in effect, advised boaters from other states that their boater education certificates from their home states were probably worthless and that they needed to get a NH certificate. But, Mr. or Mrs. Vacationer, you won't be able get the necessary certificate on line after this year; NH doesn't trust you not to cheat on the test. From now on you can just drive up so somebody they trust can "proctor" you to make sure you don't!

How about the marker system that has been the subject of recent posts as an impression maker? Even with over 600 hours spent behind the helm over the last 5 seasons and a Bizer-chart equipped color GPS telling me where to look, I find that the darned things can be hard to see in some conditions (e.g., heavy chop looking into the sun). I suspect that the "pucker factor" for a vacationing boater coming up on the Witches or the Graveyard in such conditions can be rather high. But, hey, the present markers are "the NH way" and if the vacationers want to use "our lake" they can just get over it (or buy a new prop!)

Oh, if you own a performance boat and want to bring it with you on vacation, don't bother coming; you're not welcome. You're not real welcome if you're bringing a PWC, either.

And, by the way, better not think about anchoring your boat in front of somebody's property while you have a bite of lunch and enjoy a quick swim, either. You might spoil their view, and they'll call the MP to roust you from there, too (and probably file for a new No Rafting area, to boot). Best figure on eating while you drive (but, drive slowly so you don't make any wake!).

Folks, I love the lake and spend virtually every weekend from ice-out to the end of October up there. I also rarely miss a night on this site (unless I'm up at the lake). But, if I get the above impressions concerning my welcome up there, perhaps the same impressions are being conveyed to other current or potential vacationers?

Something to think about...

Silver Duck

Well Sil , with that outlook I guess some people may be getting what the wished for. Wonder how they'll like it when small businesses start closing because the can't make it with the lesser tourism?
Be careful what you wish for:rolleye2:

Sorry to say it looks like I'm going to miss this year:(

Less people
 

I was speaking with the woman who runs the MINI GOLF course in Alton Bay and she says that there have been fewer people coming thru this summer. I would suspect it is related to the high cost of gas.

It seemed as though there was less boat traffic this year during the week I was up in August.

The infamous "price of gas" reasoning...
 

I disagree with the price of gas being a reason people won't hit the roads. Let's do the math: If the price of gas averaged about $.50/gallon higher than last summer, and the tank takes 18 gallons to fill, that equals $9.00 extra cost. If the car gets 22 miles/gallon, that means the car can travel 396 miles on a tank...or an additional $.02/mile cost than last year. I feel what the lakes region has to offer FAR out weighs the additional $.02/mile to get here. If an average family of 4 sacrificed going out to dinner just ONCE in a month, (at a cost of $54.00) 6 trips to the lake would be covered...and that's if you lived the full 396 miles away! So....why does the lake seem less crowded? I don't know, BUT I LIKED IT!!

I've been thinking about this issue since I was involved in this thread on the Searay owners site:

http://www.searayowners.com/forum/fo...s.asp?TID=7132


Basically the person wants to know if he should visit Lake George or Lake Winni. He eventually picks Lake George because his Boat US safety test isn't recognized in NH. He's from western Mass. I'm all for the boating safety tests but I think NH maybe getting a little picky.

Does anyone know for certain why NH doesn't recognize the Boat/US boating certificate? It is recognized by the NASBLA.

According to the following site:

http://nasbla.org/education_requirements.htm

"Only NASBLA-approved New Hampshire and other state certificates are accepted. No certificates issued by private companies are recognized."

Convergence of Trends?
 

Seeing a "Larger-Boat Trend"?

Twenty years ago, it wouldn't have been too unusual to have one small boat anchored off this shoreline for several hours.

Fifteen years ago, it wouldn't have been unusual to see five or six anchored along this shore on a weekend. In the past decade, there have been five or six aoong the shoreline—all season long.

Today there are none—all season. They congregate instead in a quiet, protected, small cove nearby.

Why? The tubing trend has produced near-constant wake action—not a peaceful environment for a quiet and scenic lunch on the lake. The cove also protects against Jet-Ski intrusions: Oddly, there is a trend to tow the family's Jet-Skis to the cove! Now that both sides of that cove are being bulldozed for McMansions, expect the inevitable NRZ there. (Another trend).

What's worse is that tubers are being towed by big and scary examples of the "Larger Boat" trend. The trend to increasingly-larger boats is driven by speed and "ride comfort" (among other considerations): As a result, wakes from "those other boats" are now trending still larger!

Now the trend to larger boats is being confronted by the dual-trends of higher gas consumption and higher gas prices.

Another trend: The McMansion trend started about 1985, even replacing entire boys' camps. Each under-used McMansion replaces one or more "family camps nestled in the pines". The trend toward increased property taxes are reducing the numbers of affordable summer rentals, already being crunched by gas price increases of the past couple of years.

Even restaurants are trendier: It's not difficult to see why we're not seeing the crowds of fifteen years ago.

For the opinions regarding last season's crowds, (and more grist for the mill :) ), see here.

I completely concur with this; except for one small detail: the folks that would pass on a trip to the lake this years vs. last year, due to gas prices, have not bothered to do the math. I did the math, gas (especially boat gas) is still a bargain when you factor the fun in.

I'm coming back
 

I was just up to the lake with my small boat the week of August 8th for my first time ever. We had a great time...in fact my kids and wife said we'll have to come back sometime for another week. So, I said let's go next week. We are coming back next week for another expected great time.

We explored almost the entire lake (never got to Alton Bay or Wolfboro) and everyone seemed pretty curtious on the water. Of course I am not out there pushing the limits of the law either. I did space out once my first time through the main channel coming from the broads to Weirs and forgot that it was no wake. I went through doing about 20mph and a 40ft cig boat coming the opposite way gave me some hand signals. I didn't understand why such a big boat would be telling me to slow down....then it dawned on me...doh.

I would rather have tight rules and an MP presence on the water than the alternative. I don't think this stuff makes people NOT come. What makes people shy away from some lakes is LACK of order. Out of staters like myself just need to pick up a Bizer chart and read the lake regulations. It's not that difficult.

This site has been a great help also...thanks.

Your on to something....
 

GWood,

Your on to the real reason the number of visitors are down. The percpetion of out of staters and even local state visitors is that Winni has become too crowded and "dangerous". Too little enforcement not too much.... they don't feel its a safe place. Further when they come people can be rude and don't pay any attention to the boating laws. How do we know this? We have talked to dozens and dozes of folks about it and the reasons above have been given across the board. Many of our friends will no longer come on the weekends to see us because they just don't like all the boats on the water ignoring the 150' rules. Another theme we have heard often is that the lake just isn't as scenic as before with all the houses being cut into the hills. Many of them commented that the water is losing it's clarity as well. We all know this is largely from all the building and resulting run off worsened by all the rain we had. I realize many of you will jump on me for this post yet whether you agree with it or not we are having a significant perception problem regarding Winni. A growing negative perception of the lakes area is what is keeping people away. If you want the lake to take care of you (economy etc) then you have got to take care of it in return. Protecting this resource is the way to protect your pocket.

well, two differnet views. silver duck appears to take the side of boaters while great idea gives us a land owner perspective.

i think the nh economy and especially the lakes region economy revolves around how many boats are on the lake. if there are a lot of boats on the lake, there's a lot of people in surrounding businesses. no boats on the lake, business suffers.

i personally feel the more restrictions we put on boats on the lake (no rafting zones etc...) the fewer boats we'll end up with and the slower the economy and less nh tax $'s.

nashua telegraph
 

To All,

From nashua telegraph

"Normally, there is a growth of around 4 percent each year, but that’s not the case this summer, according to Bill Boynton, spokesman for the state Department of Transportation.

“There hasn’t been one week where it’s been more than last year,” Boynton said, pointing to the latest turnpike traffic numbers.

Total traffic for the week of July 23 was 557,931, down 7 percent from last year, when the turnpike saw 602,526 vehicles pass through. It was down 5 percent the week of July 16; down 3.1 percent for the week of July 30; down 1.8 percent for the week of August 5, and down 2.8 percent for the week of Aug. 16."

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/...0179/-1/sports

Maybe it's a combination of things... economy, gas prices, boating laws, weather.
It's like the famous saying about porno... "I can't define it... but I know it when I see it..:) " I'm seeing it... (not the porno... the reduced traffic!!!! :emb: )

Lake is less busy, stores are less crowded.. traffic is lighter (at least here on the Gilford side of the lake)

More numbers will come out of the state tourism department in a few weeks... my bet is that the numbers are down.

SteveA

If you read the Globe and Telegraph articles, it's reported that the slowdowns are at least regional if not national. Mt Katahdin did not lose a third of it's visitors because of 150' violations on Winnipesaukee. I don't know if there is even enough data to compare the drop in Winni visitors to the general drop.

When you think about reasons and trends for a general slowdown, you have to think beyond our local arguements. I'm sure gas prices have some effect. Sure if you think about it rationally, it's only a few dollars more than last year. But when you see those big jumps in prices, it makes you irrational. This may be just a normal economic cycle, things go up and down all the time.

Maybe it's just changing tastes, why is the Winnipesaukee Pier (aka Irwin Gardens) full of pinball machines instead of a swinging nightclub with big bands. Why is the Alton Pavillion changing to residential condo instead of roller skating. Why did Camp Alton stop being a summer camp and sell. People found other interests and those old uses were no longer viable.

I think that is being picky by NH, I have one of these certificates from FL and they said it was okay to be used in NH, but the state says different. Now I am stuck taking the course again for the third time :rolleye1:

It says right on there NASBLA approved and the test is probably the same as the other online tests.

could be just a trend
 

another point of view:

we had a tremendous slowdown in the economy over the past 5 years, since 2001 (at least that's when i started feeling it in the stock market). maybe it's just taken a few years to trickle down to peoples vacation dollars. when it's just a year or two, it's easier to ignore. but when it's been a tough 5 years, how long can people just ignore the problems. their earned income just isn't streaching as far as it used to. and over the years its compounded into a problem. add to that income in the stock market has turned to losses in the market; 5 years ago gas was gas was $1.70 or so (http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html); 5 years ago you thought your house was going to appreciate at 5 - 10% a year. maybe it's just a normal cyclical trend.

in 1987 we had a stock market correction of 20% across the board. that was followed up in 1989 - 1992 with a 20 - 30% correction in the housing market. could we be sitting in the new "1990" with a couple of years left before we start seeing things improve?

I have been going to the Lake for many, many years, however, in the last 10 years or so, I have only been to the lake a few times. There are many reasons why I have stopped going to the lake. The biggest thing is when you look for a place to stay (in formiliar place) all the cottages and camps have been turned into private homes and if they are renting, the cost is outragious! I can not afford those prices. Then there's the other costs to factor in, Gas, Boat Rental, All kinds of Lake Laws and once on the lake all the places you use to go, you can't, there's what you call a McMansion there! So now maybe once in five years I'll go up for a day and if I should have some extra cash, stay overnight in a real cheep motel, if I can find one!
However, the lake that I once knew is still in my head and all the joyest memories are there. I'm sure as time goes on the number of people visiting the lake will keep falling. To bad how money eats up a good thing!
Greed a terrible cancer!:(

CEP

I agree with BR. The fact that interest rates are up significantly and RE appreciation has slowed means that fewer people are able to tap home equity to maintain a lifestyle beyond what their income would normally allow.

Go to any mall or restaurant on any given weekend...that to me is a good indication that people are still spending money...lots of it.

jrc wrote:
Isn't Boat-ed dot com a private company? It says it is on it's website That still doesn't answer the question, why doesn't NH allow NASBLA approved courses offered by others?

Well this is the first year in a long time that we had no difficulty getting seating in several area resteraunts. I took the kids down to the weirs arcades on several ocassions too and they were never really busy. In fact usually there was less than a dozen people in them.

Sorry, I missed the "why" first time I read your previous post.

As to why, probably the same reason they're dropping the current online test, fear of cheating.

Boat-ed is a private company contracted to act as an agent for NH. NH had to approve the test. Boat US is an independent company without state control. Well at least that's my guess.

NH fish and game uses a company called Great Lodge to issue NH fishing licenses. Same basic idea.

I'm going with the slowing of the economy AND high gas prices:( .
Wakeup did the math but not with my figures;) . Traveling 800 miles round trip
in a truck getting 13 mph pulling 8000 lbs of boat and trailer. Now toss in a week in a NASWA cottage , food , entertainment and a boat that gets almost 1.5 mph on a good day. Last trip to the lake was over 200 miles on the GPS in a week. We're looking at $2000/$2500 for the week. That will go a lot further staying home and doing the day trip and boat thing PLUS you get two extra days because a day is shot each way in travel ,which is exactly what we did last week;)
Well , maybe next year at the lake again:cool:
Sure did miss the labsta at Sandy Point though:(

You guys need to fire your brokers, (or maybe hire a good one).

S+P is a couple of hundred points short of all time high,

same for the DOW

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5EG...=off&z=m&q=l&c=

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5ED...=off&z=m&q=l&c=


since 2001, housing prices on the lake have close to doubled, (my take anyway). A small correction is probably going to happen, but who cares. Gas prices have gone through the roof, probably due more to hype than anything else. The gas prices probably have had a huge impact on some peoples vacation plans. While it may only be "9" extra dollars to fill that tank, some people are worried and hurt by the prospect of having to pay that extra $9 many times a month.

Personally, I've been enjoying the peace and quiet and honestly, I don't think it is down that much from last year.

Well the stock market might be doing well, but I saw an interesting take on what's happening in this morning's Herald. It quotes Boston Federal Reserve president Cathy Minehan as warning us not to cheer too loudly about last weeks inflation numbers. She apparently isn't buying them.

http://business.bostonherald.com/bus...ticleid=153847

Unfortunately the online article doesn't have the chart comparing the "new" way of figuring the CPI with the "old" way of doing it.

So while the govt may ignore certain factors in life when it calculates things like this, the rest of us can't. I think all of the reasons stated above play a factor. Gasoline prices, uncertainty about the economy/job, properties going condo, available rental properties prices increasing.

I don't think the boating certificate regulation has had a major impact one way or another.

I think folks that would normally come up to Winni and drop a couple of thousand dollars on vacation are being cautious.

I just came back from the Weirs area and yes there is less people. The place was a ghost town Saturday and Sunday nite. In the daytime there are people on the boat and train but then at nite they disappear. The hotels are still booked on weekends though, but mid week it was emptier than usual < this is my 18th season up there>.

Hi All,

Not sure about the overall trend about crowds in the Lakes Region, but I do have some anecdotal evidence.

I typically drive up to winnie 4-5 times a year for day trips to fish the big lake (I'm from Massachusetts). I have yet to vist this year, and yes gas prices are at least partly to blame. A trip to winnie towing my bassboat would mean nearly a tank of gas in my truck ($60-70) and depending how much I cruise around the lake (which I *LOVE* to do while fishing) another $30-40 in boat gas.

Instead, I've been fishing local ponds that cost almost nothing to fish ... short drives and small lakes that require *very* little boat gas. In fact, this is the first year I've used my Massachusetts fishing license outside of ice fishing season.

My first trip to winnie this year will be for the Naswa "autumn breeze" special. We did this last year (the Sunday thru Thursday before labor day) and had a great time... we had booked this back in March. We just called to see if we could come in a day early and it was no problem... our cabin was not booked for this weekend..... I was surprised.

So... I'm actually looking forward to a somewhat quiet week!

Cheers....

Gusman

......75 cents!
 

Eliminating the highway tokens at the Hooksett toll booths was the one main reason for the overall revenue downturn! I actually noticed hundreds of angry NH residents from southern NH that were backing up, and/or making a U-turn out on Rt 93 just before the toll booths once they learned that what used to cost them 37 1/2 cents had been doubled up to 75 cents. Off they went west to Vermont, which can be accessed toll-free.

The long stretch of hot, rainy and humid weather from May 15 thru August 7, and $2.92 gasoline had absolutely nothing to do with the revenue downturn!

no lower crowds here, don't bother coming up, we're full.:D

I know that gas is only slightly higher then last year, but thats slightly higher then the year before, and so on and so on, and its keeping me home more. Its also not been the warmest summer. I heard another report on local radio last night that indicated gas and rental prices were effecting tourism up here. I bet the slow Saturday mets3007 saw has more to do with less local kids hanging out here then they used to (gas again?).

But if we look at the big picture, and I like the 5 year trend too, how much disposible cash that people had 5 years ago is going to a morgage? How much has gas gone up? Rental prices? Changes to boating laws?

It looks like a downturn, but I'd bet its also a short lived downturn that we'd better take advantage of while we can.

lower revenues
 

From today's Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...142/-1/CITIZEN

Looks like there is at least some effect of higher gas prices meaning fewer visitors.

SteveA

37 1/2 Cents
 

are people really driving the extra 80 +/- miles to the Peoples Republic Of Vermont just to avoid an extra 37 1/2 cents at the hookset toll ? :rolleye1: Talk about stingy !!

Let's get Jimmie Carter back in there........love that 20% inflation......12% unemployment and 12% interest rates

Less Crowded Weirs
 

Have been to the Weirs on a couple of Sat nights this year just to check the place out for old times sake. The crowds are certainly down this year and I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact the Weirs is just getting "old"? The same arcades, junk food, and trashy gift stores. Like JRC said, tastes change and perhaps this is a factor. Also, the Weirs has always been a "blue collar" family destination. Even in the era of condos, McMansions and big boats a day at the beach and a night on the Boardwalk were within reach. Now consider the price of gas, increased motel rates etc.and even the Weirs becomes less affordable.

As someone who spent all their summers at the Weirs while growing up I,ve come to the opinion that the Weirs will continue to deteriorate (ala Hampton/Salsbury Beach) or will be slowly gobbled up and turned into Meredith South. But perhaps that is for another thread.

That's all true. But these historic highs only bring us 1 or 2% higher than it was 5 years ago, in 2001. that's not a great return on your investment money - 1 or 2% over a 5 year period. and you've lost money if your tracking the s&p over a 5 year period. i hope your stock broker is getting you better returns than those #'s. now the nasdaq, on the other hand, was 5500 in 2001 and it's now at just over 2100, less than half what it was in 2001.

Actually, he ( broker) has easily beat those numbers. Don't forget, a few little problems happened during that time, 9/11, Iraq among others. The Nasdaq,in the late 90's, was propelled to those highs on the backs of tech stocks most of which were grossly overvalued and over hyped, if not criminally misrepresented (I don't include the obvious now infamous criminal cases in this generalization). We're getting off on a tangent here, my point is that the economy is not all gloom and doom, in fact its been quite robust as evidenced by the FEDs continual interest rate increases. Unemployment is low, you can see this when you drive down RT 25 and see the number of Help Wanted signs. I think the vacation slow down here is more a by product of the sensationalized media coverage of gas prices, most people, not all, but most aren't severely impacted by gas prices. The Speed limit controversy also had an impact because the Lake was portrayed as an unfriendly place, which simply isn't true.

I hope your wrong weirsguard. I totally agree with you about it feeling "old", and worse yet in my opinion looking that way. I am amazed at how badly the mounts facilities need a coat of paint, the boardwalk needs a lot of wood replaced, and the decor of most of the attractions is firmly stuck in the 1970's.

But a lot of the owners who have been here forever are starting to look towards retiring. Not that I think they've done anything wrong, but maybe new blood will help. Somehow the Weirs has re-invented itself over and over again for 150 years, so I'm not giving up yet.

My theory is that the prices are high for rentals which is why there is less people traveling even though we paid the price and will always pay it. The gas prices have nothing to do with the local kids not hanging out, maybe they found a new place to hang out lol, I just found it weird to see Weirs Beach aracades half full on a Saturday nite thats all.