New Dive Location?
 

The owners of the Dive want to construct their own dock attached to the city owned dock in Weirs Beach

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...cd688ed72.html

So what's the Dive's plan for this Summer? (ignoring Covid-19 for this discussion)

Even if they get town approval they still need DES approval, appeal periods, etc. Then need to build it. I think it is a solid idea but the timing for this summer will be nearly impossible I would think. Was there discussion about letting them use the end dock that is at the Wiers now or just parking on the "inside" of the docks and side load for this season?

Is there any drawing of the proposed plan?

side note: the city is good at getting people to pay for things, maybe the can widen the docks so you can fit more than two boats inbetween the slips to utilize the whole slip:D:laugh::D

I don’t get it. The dive pays $100k to build the pier & run utilities, deeds it to the city, and a counselor says $250/month isn’t enough?


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.... what's the location?
 

So, where is this proposed new 'The Dive' dock located? Is it at the Winnipesaukee Pier which is privately owned, or is it to replace the public boat docks that are closer to the sandy beach and Weirs channel?

This news article doesn't say where it will be, but it sounds likes it would replace some of the public, City of Laconia, boat docks. Believe there are about five public docks with room for two boats each/per side, and is common to hear complaints about these docks being too close together.

So, by building it on public docks, it will essentially turn the public docks area into private business, commercial restaurant/bar use, and the whole dock area will become one big, outdoor, drinking establishment. It would probably be a busy new location, and the state liquor store will sell a lot of adult beverages at wholesale prices to The Dive.

If Laconia wants to turn their Weirs dock area into a dive bar, then it should give the green light to The Dive. .... :cheers:

From that location it's a bit of a long walk to either the public rest room building on the sandy beach, or the public rest room at the Mount Washington ticket window building.

Does the new dock construction include a public rest room?

Not to derail the conversation before it even gets started but Laconia could apply for a BIG grant and get 200k or more to fix the docks (this is available every year for NH). They just chose not to and they are aware it exists. Tier 2 is also available yearly but goes up to several million dollars. This is federal money.

To my knowledge, no one in NH has ever taken advantage of it. They were trying to get fish and game to administer it but looks like they settled on DES.

https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/.../big-grant.htm

Foiled...
 

I read the subject line for this thread and got all excited about a potential new dive site. As in SCUBA.

Oh well.

:(

I would assume that the Weirs docks that already exist are only possible because of some sort of grandfathering. Does The Dive believe that somehow there is an endless amount of square footage that the town can add? This is the latest of their interesting ideas that seem half-baked when taken from the oven.

I hope shore things can offer insight here.

I would prefer they do the docks over and add space for more boats to visit the boardwalk. I think it would benefit the area more than a new dock for the Dive, JMO.

Dock Space
 

While I am a proponent of the Dive, I am curious how this would affect the current dock space at the Weirs...

In the past if you were visiting the dive at a sand bar you would anchor and swim to or get dropped off then anchor and swim to the dive.

Would boaters visiting the dive now utilize all the Weirs dock space allowing no space for boats visiting other establishments at the Weirs??

Just thinking out loud...

Dan

Agree they should be replaced. However, if you were to replace them, bringing them up to today’s standards and requirements would cost more then 200k.


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Am I the only one who avoids the Weirs because of wave action pounding the boats at the docks?

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It is rough over there at times, but I avoid mostly because the docks are terribly designed (lots of threads about them so I wont elaborate). I would rather ride a motorcycle to the Weirs and a boat to Meredith:)

Weirs-- bouncing at docks
 

I've never felt that was a problem. Obviously more traffic going by than say, Meredith which is a dead end. Weirs Bay has the traffic, but the docks are somewhat protected from prevailing winds. Doesn't matter, wherever I tie up, I hang fenders. Problem, if any, solved.

I've got fenders, too, but I've always watched my boat getting pounded against the docks from above. I may try using bungee ropes instead of regular rope next time.

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You shouldn't need that! As long as you find a dock with good post bumpers (the 2X6 or 2X8 uprights attached to many lake docks). I can't recall the docks at the Weirs but Meredith has them on 2/3 of their docks. The post bumpers will allow your boat to ride with the wake. Tied properly, you should not need to deploy a fender with post bumpers.

There is a pretty simple compromise here.... that benefits the city and the Dive.

The City should lease (5 year/option to renew) the outermost finger to the Dive (closest to the beach). This is currently the pick up/drop off area. Move the pick up/drop off to the other side of the same finger... This buys the City some time to decide IF they want to reconfigure the docks, and HOW they may want to do so.... without being constrained by any "new" construction to the docks. We all know how slowly the wheels of progress turn in the Weirs!

The Dive (as proposed) can pay for the improvements necessary for them to operate (electrical/sewage) and also pay to relocate those services should the docks be reconfigured.

If the City decides to reconfigure the dock, the Dive can then pay for one of those fingers in return for a long term lease (as proposed)

In this scenario... everybody wins.

Woodsy

Sounds like a reasonable, easy solution, but trust me, it won't be a simple fix.

if the dive were to do it right
 

I have worked as captain for a floating restaurant.

I also lived on sandy island for many years where we cooked for 300 people daily (not a floating restaurant)

The business model doesn't work for a floating restaurant.
Our biggest issue was:
Financially Seasonal
Safety, Food Safety, WASTE disposal! Fresh water. Power. Cold Supply chain. Fuel, Electricity.
other problems of course weather, unruly patrons, unpredictable staff. Etc.

I don't understand how the coast guard is so strict on colregs72 and the CFRs, but something like this is ok on a Lake?

The restaurant I worked for was in inland waters and required a COI as a subchapter T Vessel which meant it was subject to a COI Certificate of Inspection that allows 149 Passengers. Requires a USCG Master 100ton in-lnand. Annual inspection, fire drills man overboard, waste pollution plan the whole 9.
BUT the restaurant was still a FAIL, ultimately too many fines and regulations, rightfully so, Bagged for dumping waste!

Look it up. The Rockmore Restaurant.

This is what a floating restaurant does to a community.

The environmental impacts of a floating restaurant are ten-fold what anyone thinks.


Also consider the way the rockmore was opperated was a registered business in Marblehead MA, But water access thru Salem, MA public pier.

I have as well worked on a floating restaurant, which has been very successful and has locations all over the country. Done right, it works. I do not see a problem with them making a go at this, why not

The true issue, sorry one of the main issues is the docks themselves, they are tight long fingers that you cant access due to the width restraints.

On a side note: Aqua marine put in new dock structures, I see that WOW has taken down one of their slip buildings, and put docks in, it seems like money greases the wheels for dock expansions, but I do not see why the town would run into any restrictions to put new docks in or a new configuration in.

I am not against the ventures listed above putting new docks in, in fact in am in favor of new docks around the lake, but when doing our docks we were not able to replace like in kind and had to reconfigure to a smaller size that was there before damage for numerous years???:confused:

Very informative, Sandyisi. A couple of follow on thoughts:

I don't want to suggest the Dive guys are criminals like the Rockmore guys, but the example does highlight the extreme difficulty of disposing of an awful lot of contaminated water. I suppose the town/state should ask the Dive to prove they are doing this correctly.

The difficulties you highlight of water vs land suggest a floating restaurant may need to charge much higher prices especially if it is paying a market rent for dock space. I have not been on the Dive--I wonder how its prices compare?

Sandyisl
 

Sandy, prior to you joining the Forum there was a lengthy discussion here about many of the questions you raise.
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...highlight=Dive

would have thought
 

Alright then my opinion voiced, I don't want that type of operation, their waste or their type of clientele in the lake.

trashy

You do know that a good number of us are part of that clientele?

Their food is terrible, but IMO it's the best place to sit with a drink and watch fireworks at WB on weekends over the summer. Never saw it get overly loud or rowdy, as I have at some places across the street that noone seems to speak poorly of.

Well isn't that special. Never been, now, I will have to go!

Pretty bold statement there.. Sandy! I think you might want to reconsider your post. Your lack of class is showing!

Woodsy

Typical "beautiful person" attitude. Boy, would I love to be your neighbor!! We could have lot's of fun...!!!

If there is a limit to how many people they can let on board, will they be able to make enough profit to make it worthwhile?

There most definitely is a limit, any floating structure would, although I don't know what it is. They are making it so far, and I hope they continue to do so. I have not been on board yet myself, but I will get on it one of these days.

With the gathering limits just identified, a non issue this summer


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Unfortunately, I think that will be the case with most restaurants and many other businesses that rely on crowds. I shudder to think about how many will be gone.

We have to figure out how to adapt if we ever want to see life somewhat "summer normal" (right now it is not that much different).

It is going to be tough around here for a lot of people, many whom are friends.

Very true. Thinking barstools are out. Every other table removed. No crowding waiting for tables or seats at the bar. Maybe, reservations only would work. Thinking Funspot and other arcades are closed. Some won’t open again. Maybe this is where the current arcade building owners sell out? Thinking a A&W carhop would work in this environment. Your thoughts?


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Agreed--it's brutal and sad. If I owned a restaurant, I think I'd hand the landlord the keys and ask when he'd like for me to vacate. All the while praying that the landlord recognizes that the current tenant, even when he can't pay rent, is still the guy most likely to be able to pay rent as we come out of this. This year, just surviving is success.

Yes, 100% agreed. The day of the shutdown, a friend that owns a restaurant locally said, over our last cocktail, that if it lasts a month he may end up selling for the real estate. I am sure he said it somewhat out of frustration, but only somewhat.

My sister has three restaurants in MA, they are doing a little takeout but over 100 people are laid off. Right now most people in the restaurant biz are doing OK as long as they were working above the table, but the additional $600 that most receive through unemployment will end in July (likely some extension will happen, but I am sure it will be more formula based). That is when the real pain may happen.

All good thoughts. Regarding carhop, certainly especially for fast food. I am usually in NC/SC every other week or more and drive a lot- Sonics have become a good lunch stop.

I wasn't thinking about the Weirs- wow, talk about a place that needs a crowd:(

Maybe the silver lining, this might be what it takes to revamp. Out with the old and pathetically run down and in with the fresh and new. Tower Hill is re-doing the top of the street, maybe someone can do the other end.

I have a different take. The city owns the waterfront real estate that will serve the dock. If the city were to make this deal with the Dive, the city would only be deriving $1500 per year for the lease of that real estate. Assuming the dock is for the exclusive use of the Dive, during the “10 to 20 year” lease term, the city derives no financial benefit from the $100,000 expenditure by the business owners of the Dive. The $100,000 expense would be a leasehold improvement, for which the Dive alone would recognize a financial return. In fact, the dive “boat”, and the dock itself, are not taxable as real estate. The Dive would get be getting a spectacular deal.

Consider the following as an analogy. Imagine the city takes a parcel of land in the Weirs, and offers that land to a restaurant business, for an annual fee of $1,500 per year. The business has to spend $100,000 on a parking lot for the exclusive use of their patrons, and they then move a modular restaurant, valued at $500,000 (a guesstimate of the cost of the barge/building) onto the site. The restaurant operates on the site for 10 or 20 years, and they subsequently close, and move the modular off the site, at the end of the lease term. The restaurant pays no taxes on the land, the parking lot, or the modular building, which have a total value of $750,000, and which would normally require an approximately $15,000 to $20,000 tax payment to the city. At the end of the lease, the city gets the their land and a 10-20 year old parking lot back, which may or may not be marketable to another user.

Was the above analogy a good deal for the city? Was it a fair deal to competing restaurants, who would have been making a much higher mortgage payment on their land value, and which pay real estate taxes?

If the city wants the dive, they should do the following:

1. Require that the dive pay a fair market rental for the land, that would be based on a reasonable return on the value of an equivalent restaurant land site with water views, in the Weirs.
2. Require that the Dive make a payment in lieu of taxes, that would be equivalent to the amount of taxes that a comparable land based restaurant would pay.
3. Discount #1 and #2, for the net present value of the used dock the city will receive at the end of the lease term. This way, the City is acknowledging some future value of the dock that gets constructed, but which they will eventually control.

If the Dive doesn’t think the above suggested terms are financially viable, I would argue that they are looking for a prime waterfront restaurant site, at a value that is way below market value.

A better alternative would be to build public docks, and rent them out for the night. I’ll bet ya that would generate a lot more income, generate revenue/patrons for all Weirs businesses, and provide a public amenity that is sorely lacking for the boating public. Heck, I’d do that deal with the City in a heartbeat, at $1,500 per year! If nothing else, it would be popular politically, as compared to the Dive, that seems to be a polarizing topic.

Where does $1,500 a year come in ? You must be a lawyer, and probably a real estate lawyer. More worried about real estate tax loss than the opportunity loss of revenue taxes.

Ugh and ick to lawyers.

As long as we find reasons to say no instead of yes to businesses the area will stay a run down eyesore. Try and squeeze the most out of a business that survived two years and employs a couple dozen-plus people at good wages and you will win - they will leave or fold.

Then what do you have? Empty arcades with garage doors that spend all winter partially open because they can no longer even close, a dive bar and a surprisingly good Mexican restaurant.

Keep stifling growth, lawyers look for reasons to say no, business people look for reasons to say yes - let's take a chance and try. Guess which ones are really needed, especially now ?

Adventure
 

"Out on route one in Saugus, Come dressed just as you are. Adventure, where the service is great, and you never get out of your car..." When was the last time you had a "Ginsberger: served on a 45 rpm record? Woo Woo.

I wasn't even thinking about the virus' impact on the limit of people allowed on the Dive... Yes, that may have an impact because the season is so short for the Dive, although once things get going, (in general), I think most people have short memories and things will be back to "normal" quicker than you think. At least that is my hope...