Hey Major....are you getting ready to go to the Tulsa rally?? People are lining up for several days now. I'm sure you would love it. It is right up your alley

Why do you always try to inject politics into these discussions?

Because that is exactly what this thread is about. It has nothing to do with history, medicine, and science.

Unfortunately, it has everything to do with politics and strongly held political beliefs.

Nothing wrong with discussing politics but at least label it as such.

"In" before the "Zot"...
 

The Leftists have angled ALL the headlines towards November. :(

My, aren't you virtuous. The smugness oozes from you post. Let's take a look at some of the adjectives to describe you: educated, fearless, considerate, informative, brave, superior. You are certainly the cat's you know what.

Reading your post made me think of this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXZeq9eXAys

Anyway, I have sneaking suspicion that you and Neville Chamberlain would have gotten along famously.

politics and masks
 

You are 100% correct.

I don't know the stats but can pretty much guarantee you 90% of the anti mask group are Trump supporters who clearly have zero regard for science. Oh, and Major's persistent noting Dr "Fraud's" mask comments was an obvious attempt to justify his idiocy or ignorance. Fauci's comments were recorded when masks were in short supply and made so as to mitigate a run on them so that there would be an adequate supply for health professionals.

So here's the science; masks are the number one way to help stop a virus from spreading. This is so well accepted in science as to be fact. To the extent people in closed spaces are not using masks they are being selfish and rude. Personally, I don't give a damn if you want to put yourself at risk but when you put me and my family at risk, then that's a problem. That said, I know you dimwits will not change your behavior.

If our illustrious POTUS doesn't need to wear a mask why should I?

If I lived in Oklahoma, I'd be there. I am unashamed of my support and admiration of our GREAT president. He has done more for the country in 3+ years than his lazy do-nothing predecessor.

furthermore
 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612172200.htm

and this is telling:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/trum...al-of-him.html

Actually, you misunderstand me somewhat. I'm actually not as worried about catching this disease myself, as I am that a resurgence in society as a whole will undo the work accomplished in the lockdown and will mean further restrictions. (This is what I wrote: "After the pain and suffering of the lockdown, it worries me that people may let this disease get out of hand again because they don't like wearing a mask. Especially as more people pour into town.")

I'd like to go out to eat and see my friends. I want the economy to come back strong. A resurgence in the disease threatens that. I want this all to be behind us and carelessness in society threatens that.

Thank you for finding this. Mask use even in surgery didn’t routinely start until 1898. So the fact that the general public would be wearing them for a pandemic only 20 years later is pretty remarkable as the science of infectious disease was still in its infancy. Frankly, now that we know as much as we do about transmission of respiratory illness and mask usage, it’s sad to see those that don’t support their use. The people in this old photo were basing much on sheer faith that the mask would work, not the science we have today.


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Just posted on my town's forum with a heads-up for anyone susceptible.Attachment 16132

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At first I thought it was a hoax but it appears to be real! Thank you Thinkxingu! Finally, some common sense mask reform that we can all stand behind!

It certainly is a hoax...the real part is that it is political. I am defining “hoax” as something “real and true” but you don’t want to believe it.

Isn’t that the correct political definition of hoax...true, but not acceptable? Like the “Chinese Virus” hoax which isn’t any different from the flu.

We believe what we wish to believe, what’s truth got to do with it?

You are your own lexicographer. Define things as you wish.

Exactly my point. The origin of NoMaskDay seems to be a libertarian group and the defense is against any interference by government in our lives. I may not agree...but it is a political position. It has nothing whatsoever with whether masks have anything to do with health and safety.

That is a matter of personal principle. Ok....but it has nothing to do with science or medicine. Saying “I won’t wear a mask because it does not work” just is not defensible.

And some of the stuff on the Internet is put on there by foreign interests precisely to divide us.

No more from me...I have to talk to the Instacart shopper.

I am so sick of the science and facts arguments. If there are science and facts involved, and you are so confident that quarantining, social distancing and masks work, please answer for me --

How many lives have been saved as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many lives have been saved because of social distancing?
How many lives have been saved because of wearing masks?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of social distancing?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of masks.

You can't answer any of these questions. There will never be any way of knowing. For all we know, these actions may have made the situation worse. All we know is the raw data which is as follows:

Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723
*from Worldometer

By contrast the Swine flu, which was not accurately tracked, resulted in the following estimates:

Worldwide cases - 700,000,000 to 1,400,000,000
U.S. cases - 43,000,000 to 89,000,000
Worldwide deaths - 284,000 to 575,000
U.S. deaths, 8,870 to 18,300
*from Wikipedia

From the raw data, an argument exists that what we did in the U.S. caused more deaths than if we had handled it the same way as the Swine Flu. Clearly, given the average age of death from the Chinese coronavirus (82), we did a poor job in protecting the elderly.

Anyway, the raw numbers do not support our over-the-top response. Destroying tens of millions of lives for what?

In the meantime, I'd appreciate answers to my first questions if you have them.

I think most of us (at least Myself) agree with you that we don't want a resurgence and would love for things to return to normal. It's just easy to throw around the word "science" to justify an opinion when the science really doesn't exist for this virus or preventing it with a mask. Your typical surgical/medical mask is effective for about 60 seconds after which the humidity of your breath renders it practically useless. That's science indicated by peer reviewed research. The pro-maskers are completely assuming that a mask will catch large infected droplets of a cough/sneeze even after those first 60 seconds. It is pure assumption (maybe right, maybe wrong) but the real problem with transmission is being exposed to the viral cloud for 5-10 minutes. Those large droplets quickly fall to the ground and don't create the "cloud" of suspension that has been noted to be far more dangerous in transmission. Science does not indicate that a surgical/medical mask can stop this cloud after 60 seconds of use. This is the reason they're calling for social distancing as those large droplets will typically fall to ground before traveling greater than 6 ft. This virus is here and will take its course through the summer. There's no way of stopping it until we find a viable treatment or vaccine. There are areas around the world and in this country in which the virus is spreading rapidly even in lockdown or with full use of masks (Asia). We can look at the statistics and interpret them as we wish. Our interpretation is our opinion based on our political beliefs. Some think the stats aren't bad, some are living in complete fear with the same exact virus. Personally, I wear a mask when it is mandatory because I like to follow the rules. If it's not mandatory I make the decision for myself based on the situation. Others have the same liberty to make their own decision.

https://www.psypost.org/2020/06/psyc...pandemic-56980


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Sorry, I withdraw from the field...not worth the discussion. I know you won’t take that personally.

So now I guess you're a psychopath if you have a differing view on this this issue. Seems reasonable to me. Does this apply to other far left causes, such as not believing that climate change is an existential threat, or that boys dressed as girls can compete (and win) against girls, or that abortion is not murder? If so, then half the country's population are psychopaths by your and the author's definition.

For the record, within my circle of friends, none and I mean none of us believe in this nonsense. You should know in fact there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion. The day is coming (November 3rd) when this will be evident. We are sick and tired of overreaction to Chinese coronavirus and rioting and looting and all the other divisive nonsense.

I am mildly amused by my statement "within my circle of friends." I have a vision of Pauline Kael who famously stated "Nobody I Know Voted For Nixon!" But you get the point, I hope.

That's okay. I knew you didn't have the answers.

Actually, I probably could for most...just not worth it. I won’t pull a James Brown and not leave.

Stay safe.

How many lives have been saved by requiring seatbelt usage in motor vehicles?

How many cases of lung cancer have been prevented due to prohibiting smoking in restaurants and airplanes?

How many lives have been saved due to speed limits on roadways?

Any numbers are educated conjecture. No one can factually answer your questions. However, there are highly trained and educated epidemiologists and statisticians who can forecast morbidity and mortality. On the other side of the spectrum are people who know nothing of epidemiology and statistical forecasts who treat this all like it’s a bunch of bunk. When Galileo proposed that the sun was the center of our solar system he was labeled a heretic by the church! Those were the two sides of that spectrum back then. Heck there are people who believe the world is flat and no amount of “hocus-pocus science” will prove to them otherwise! I wish you luck on your quest for answers.


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The so-called experts for the most part are government hacks whose best interest is to gin-up crises to ensure future funds. The so-called experts in January, February and early March said there was nothing to worry about. Go to Chinatown and order your favorite menu item. I wish we had listened to their early recommendations. Usually, ones first instinct is the right instinct. The same can be said for the so-called climate change experts. Their best interest is to create a crisis to ensure funding and wealth transfer.

To answer your first question, I think it should be easy to determine. Measure the number of deaths per year prior to enacting the law and after enacting the law.

The second question is similarly answered - measure the number of deaths attributable to cancer and heart disease before and after enacting the law.

The third question is tricky. The reason why we lowered the speed limit, initially to 50 and then to 55, had nothing to do with safety. The issue was gas (fuel) conservation. The thought being that going slower used less fuel. It has since become a safety issue. I guess we could look at accident deaths before and after the speed limits to determine an answer.

So there are ways to measure the questions you asked. I'm curious to see the data on face masks.

There's an error with one of the numbers. According to Worldometer, there have been 2.2 million covid cases in the US, which is a good thing- otherwise the death rate would be far, far higher than it is! Also it should be noted that the numbers for swine flu are for a year, whereas the covid numbers in the US are only for about 3 months.

I think it's too bad that you're equating the severity of the lockdown, plus all your other grievances with the simple public health measure of wearing a mask in the grocery store, something that could possibly tide us over until some kind of treatment is available. But there's no point in arguing since we don't see it the same way. I sincerely wish you and your family (and all the rest of us) good health and hope you're right that there's no need for so much precaution.

You can't say you're sick and tired of the "divisive nonsense" if you continuously refer to SARS-CoV-2 as "Chinese coronavirus" and Dr. Anthony Fauci as "Dr. Fraud". That's as divisive anything else I've read on this thread. For what it's worth, Fauci has been an advisor to every US President since Reagan and as such has served under the leadership of both parties. Why didn't you refer to him as "Dr. Fraud" from 1984-Feb 2020? If anything, he's been the most transparent piece to this whole thing. He's continuously said that his only role is to advise what the health risks are in a vacuum, without considering the effects on the economy, social norms, etc. It's up to the policy makers to take the Doctor's thoughts under advisement and weigh them up against the economic advisors' thoughts. Dr. Anthony Fauci didn't shut the economy down on his own. All he did was advise the administration what could happen if social distancing measures weren't put in place. In short, he did his job.

And to your first point, I think you are correct that there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion, but you're wrong on the demographic. It's women, and they certainly aren't going to vote for the incumbent. And I say that as a middle-aged male.

You are correct, it should read as follow --
Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723

Thank you for catching the error.

I realize that I won't change anyone's view, much as you won't change mine. My vigilance is to get the other side out there, even if it's unpopular. The media and social media are one sided, and sometimes balance is required. The Forum provides a great venue to share things about the lake and to debate relevant issues in a healthy way.

I hope I'm right too! ;)

Not that simple Major. There is no way to control for what other factors may have decreased traffic deaths following seatbelt laws and lung cancer rates following smoking bans. Were there other changes to roadway safety and vehicle engineering that may have contributed to the decrease? If lung cancer rates decreased following a smoking ban was it due to the ban or were there other public or workplace pollution control measures that were also enacted around the same time that led to lower cases? Correlation does not equal causation. Also, I wasn’t talking about the 55mph speed limit issue I was talking about speed limits in general....why are they needed at all? When speed limits were first introduced in 1901 cars were far different.

I work in healthcare so my reference to “experts” has nothing to do with the folks you are watching on TV. Statisticians and epidemiologists work in every major healthcare system and not as TV personalities. Their research and recommendations are made within those healthcare systems devoid of governmental interference. Their jobs are not based on pandemics...normal flu cases and other common illness and disease keep them busy enough. There’s no puppet master pulling the strings. Be well!

Are you hurt by calling the virus it's real name? It would today be called the "Chinese coronavirus" if we didn't have a PC police. Toughen up.

Regarding Dr. Fraud, he is a fraud. There are clips I can share of him telling us there is nothing to worry about and the President's Chinese travel ban was unnecessary. There are clips in this thread of him stating that masks are ineffective. If this isn't fraudulent, then what is? Here's one "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." If our great President did anything to the contrary, Dr. Fraud and the rest of the hucksters would have labeled him a heretic. President Trump had no choice. Dr. Fraud is as culpable as anyone for this mess.

Why would women be against Trump more than against Biden? My wife can't wait to vote for Trump. The other women in my life, the same thing. What makes Biden more virtuous than Trump with women? And don't give me the credible accusations. Just like Kavanaugh's "credible" accuser. A bunch of BS. Creepy Joe didn't earn the moniker for nothing, and has a credible accuser - Tara Reade. You just don't like the President because he says mean things. I suggest you look at what he has accomplished.

Never said I like or dislike the president. I said that women are overwhelmingly polling against the incumbent, even from right-leaning sources. (I know, polls are "fake news" and admittedly were wrong in 2016). I also never said that Biden was more virtuous than Trump with women. Don't jump to conclusions as you have no idea where I land on the political spectrum and who I support. And if your definition of tough is to use a xenophobic term to describe a pandemic disease and then stoop to demeaning fellow forum members who may have differing opinions, then you're right, I guess I'm not all that tough. I hope you were more accepting of your fellow comrades in the Army who came from all walks of life and all had different world views, assuming you are indeed retired military. If so, thank you for your service.

Ignore Major. He’s the biggest blowhard on this forum.


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This thread has really gone off the rails.

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Not only has it gone off the rails but...
 

...those that are regularly contributing to this diatribe are disrespecting what the Webmaster has repeatedly appealed for. If you want to get into this level of political discourse then find an alternative venue. These threads gradually get mired in non-Lakes Region related minutiae to the point that they have no value for anyone other than those seeking a quick laugh. What isn't funny is the disrespect and antipathy that is never too far from the surface. This isn't what the Winnipesaukee Forum is all about.

Take it somewhere else.

“Blowhard?!” Very high praise. Thank you for the compliment!


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You will be happy to know I was an exceptional officer. I am happy to share my OERs. And for the record I served as an Engineer Officer and a JAG Officer for 24 years combined. I appreciate the well wishes, and I mean it.


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5 “I”‘s in three sentences. A legend in his own mind.



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I was called out about my service. What do you expect, Tbone?


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This thread reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy, "you can't fix stupid", "here's your sign".🤣

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Well you got me wrong, I get my inspiration from Dwight D. Eisenhower and Theodore Roosevelt Jr.

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.”

Dwight D. Eisenhower

You weren't called out about your service. You were thanked for your service. No need to be defensive.